Page 14 | To think that it's about time islamic fundamentalism is dissected and challenged

diddlysquatagain · 2025-10-13T18:58:11+00:00

Did anyone read the very interesting article by Matthew Syed (sorry if behind a paywall) - Sunday Times: 'One thing has been holding back the Middle East for centuries': [[https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/middle-east-religious-fanaticism-iran-kcvh5knn3 https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/middle-east-religious-fanaticism-iran-kcvh5knn3]] "The Middle East was once the centre of the intellectual world. Then it went into reverse. The problem then, as now, is Islamic fundamentalism. No peace or prosperity is possible until the madrassas and other machines of indoctrination are confronted"

BundleBoogie · 17/10/2025 09:50

awkwardasfuck · 14/10/2025 23:21

Actually, your example doesn’t support your claim about what “Islamic culture” would do here. No-one in the UK has ever been murdered for burning a book (at least, there is no credible record of that). If that had happened, it would be a huge, documented case.

By contrast, incidents of Qur’an burning, or desecration of Islamic texts, do happen in the UK, often tied to acts of Islamophobia. For example, a man was fined (later his conviction overturned) for burning a Qur’an outside the Turkish consulate in London. The Guardian. He was not murdered, you will be the first to agree I think.

Religious hate crime statistics in England & Wales show that Muslims are disproportionately targeted. In the year ending March 2024, there were 10,484 religious hate crimes, with 38 % of them targeting Muslims.

The Guardian+3GOV.UK+3UK Parliament+3

In the same period, only 7 % of religious hate crimes were recorded as targeting Christians. GOV.UK

Attacks on mosques and Islamic institutions are pretty widespread. A survey found that around 42 % of mosques or Islamic bodies had experienced a religiously motivated attack in the past three years. Al Jazeera

Yes, there is more Qur’an burning (or more frequent attacks on Muslims) here than attacks on Christians.
The UK’s legal framework does not allow murder or violence to enforce claims of blasphemy or insult, whatever the target; such acts would be prosecuted under general criminal law.
Using foreign examples (e.g. places where law or culture is very different) to assert what “Islamic culture” would do in the UK is misleading.

You say the person thinks your argument is “weak” ; that itself betrays a misunderstanding of the difference between fundamentalism (a radical belief system, often minority) and mainstream religion (the broader, mostly non-extremist practice by most adherents). Conflating the two is imprecise and unfair. Fundamentalists exist in many faiths; they do not define the whole religion or its majority.

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You seem to have missed a fundamental part of the story about the Koran burning….a lack of murder wasn’t for the want of trying.

A Muslim man who attacked someone burning a Quran outside the Turkish consulate in London has been spared jail.
Moussa Kadri, 59, saw Hamit Coskun setting alight the text and shouted: "I'm going to kill you" before slashing at him with a knife.
He later told police he was protecting his religion, Southwark Crown Court heard.
Judge Adam Hiddleston handed Kadri a 20-week prison sentence, suspended for 18 months.

You claim that the Koran burning was Islamophobia. The Koran burner says he was making a protest which is exactly the point we are making here but you may have missed.

You may also have forgotten about Lee Rigby. A soldier beheaded in public by Muslim
extremists seeking to spread terror.

The report you shared claiming that there has been a rise in religious ‘hate crimes’ against Muslims has labelled all crimes reported by Muslims as religious hate crimes but these include burglary, car damage etc but there seems to be little actual evidence that these were religiously motivated rather than just being in a high crime area. Churches regularly suffer burglaries and vandalism - it’s not necessarily counted as a religious hate crime against Christians.

There is also some evidence that a recent attempted arson on a mosque was carried out by those linked to the mosque after a failed fundraising attempt to clear debts of millions.

Therefore your ‘data’ is misleading.

As to other unacceptable practices currently happening in the UK, we have 55,000 girls mostly from families of Muslim countries of origin identified as being at risk of FGM. We have prosecutions of Imams conducting child marriage. We have mandatory teacher training in spotting signs of forced marriage in children. We have women in the UK wearing extreme Islamic dress in situations that may well amount to coercive control. We have primary schools segregating children and giving the boys better conditions. We have ‘family’ fun runs excluding all females over 12 on the say so of some men at the mosque.

This is not behaviour that is lawful or should be tolerated in our society.

MyHeartyCoralSnail · 17/10/2025 09:53

NotrialNodeal · 17/10/2025 09:43

it’s a crisis for British culture. One you might not recognise until you’ve seen it first hand.
This is the problem with the white, left leaning middle class demographic of the country. They don't see the problems day to day and so quite happily spout their woke nonsense. Sleepwalking us into a literal nightmare. One day they will all be forced to open their eyes and confronted by reality, by then of course it will be past the point of return.

Interestingly, the area I lived in the West Midlands used to be fairly middle class. But as close neighbours to areas with high first and second generation immigrants people from those areas moved in, no doubt drawn by the high performing schools (and the large houses -ideal for multi generational living) . Looking back, it took a few years. But middle class areas will experience this soon. I would say, second (and third) generation immigrants are far more likely to be radicalised - often to the horror of their parents.

NotrialNodeal · 17/10/2025 09:54

This is not behaviour that is lawful or should be tolerated in our society.

And yet it is. England 2025. I think the multiculturism experiment has failed and sadly we have done this to ourselves.

BundleBoogie · 17/10/2025 10:46

awkwardasfuck · 17/10/2025 08:48

You’re being a bit naïve. It’s not about white Muslims — white Muslims generally aren’t being attacked.

I didn’t say Muslims were any colour. I said the exclusive Brethren are white. There’s a lack of visible racial minorities in their ranks, and that affects how much scrutiny they face.

And those figures are only for the Plymouth Brethren (who are a lot more diverse). They don’t include another 46,000 in other closed Brethren sects or data from exclusive brethren offshoots. I’m not saying that makes them more of a threat or arguing with your point here — just pointing out they’re very good at evading data collection.

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You keep saying we are being naive. What do you mean by that - or is that just your way if being rude and patronising when you haven’t really got any points?

I looked up the Exclusive Brethren because funnily enough I’ve never heard of them. The number given for Exclusive Brethren exclusively as distinct from Plymouth Brethren is 55,000 worldwide.

My point is that we object as a country to all the activities you claimed, regardless of colour of skin but 55,000 people worldwide is not having as big an effect as up to half of 4 million people in the UK who share those values (surveys shared upthread) so they may get less obvious attention.

When the definition of Islamophobia is being expanded to include criticism of expressions of Muslimness (as per Labours apparent intention) m, it is inevitable that you will find a ‘rise’ in Islamophobia. This thread is about protecting ourselves from Islamic fundamentalism.

Setting aside the ‘risks’ posed by a non invasive fringe Christian cult either 55,000 members worldwide, can you see the risks of growing Islamic fundamentalism?

Here is a summary of UK terrorist attacks by Islamic extremists in the last 25 years: plus 67 British killed in 9/11

7/7 London bombing 53 dead 700 injured
06/07 Glasgow airport bombing - 5 injured
05/10 MP stabbed by Islamic extremist
05/13 Lee Rigby beheaded by 2 Islamic extremists (the authorities ignored 5 previous opportunities to arrest one of the extremists)
02/16 an imam was murdered by Islamic extremists
03/17 Westminster Bridge attack by Islamic extremist 4 dead 50 injured
05/17 - Manchester arena bombing by Islamic extremist 22 dead 1017 injured
06/17 London Bridge attack by Islamic extremists 8 dead 48 wounded
09/17 Parsons Green bombing by Islamic extremist - no dead.
12/18 - stabbing of 3 people at Manchester Station by Islamic extremist - 3 x attempted murder.

01/20 - stabbing of police officer and fake suicide vests by Islamic convert after plotting to behead another British soldier.
02/20 - stabbing of two people in Streatham - one sustained life threatening injuries by Islamic extremist
06/20 - stabbing in a park by Islamic extremist - 3 dead and 3 injured
10/21 - murder of MP David Ames by Islamic extremist
11/21 Liverpool women’s hospital bombing by Islamic extremist - 1 injured - taxi driver
10/24 - stabbing in Hartlepool by Islamic extremist - 1 70 yr old man dead, 1 seriously injured.
19/25 - 2 people murdered at a synagogue by an Islamic extremist.

By contrast in the same period, a total of 3 people were killed and 1 injury by non Islamic extremists in what were listed as terror attacks.

BundleBoogie · 17/10/2025 10:55

spoonbillstretford · 17/10/2025 08:48

Challenged by whom? We've had wars in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Palestine and various uprisings in Tunisia and notably Syria and Yemen where they turned into civil war.

To what extent should other countries who have apparently "the right way of doing things" impose their will and force on others?

I'd prefer we didn't get involved except through the UN and was never in favour of being involved in the 2000s. What does he want, WW3 to sort it all out? Because not even that would.

Us and our Home Office.

We are talking about what is going on here, not in far flung lands.

The extremists are here and having a growing influence. The government is currently trying to give away more power is Muslim leaders. Obviously they are not all extremists but they clearly have very different ideas from us on acceptable behaviour in society.

carconcerns · 17/10/2025 11:07

I live in a medium sized city.

There are specific areas where you can almost guarantee the residents are Muslim.

It is really depressing to see these formally pleasant areas, including the beautiful parks now dangerous areas due to revolting and aggressive male attention towards any female who isn't covered in black head to toe.

There is always rubbish up piled up in the streets, overflowing bins, no recycling going on or basic pride in the keeping of the homes etc. Despite previous generations of residents being 'poor' and very working class they were, for the most part, always kept immaculately - evidenced by older photos.

And I can say that there is almost no attempt at integration going on whatsoever and often little attempt to become fluent...

I am aware there can be cultural elements too, one of my very best friends was raised Muslim (but from an Arabic immigrant family background) I had a gorgeous relationship with her family and loved her mum to bits. Her dad was nice and friendly to me but I found it difficult as he obviously treated the brothers differently to my friend. The Muslims I am referring to in my city sem to come from mainly Pakistan or Bangladesh though.

There is a huge strain on local services too due to expensive translators, social needs etc but then they send much of there wage home with a view to bringing over extended families.

I believe there is also a big issue with taxi drivers sharing licences and the sharing of other paperwork and licences (fraud) this will all be seen as to the greater good as they see themselves as Muslim first so don't have that collective 'embarrassment' that we may have about diddling the benefits system (and no doubt loads of white/british do that but it's not generally seen as OK)

CharlotteCChapel · 17/10/2025 11:15

It's religious fundamentally, not just Islam.

ChessBess · 17/10/2025 11:23

ExtraOnions · 13/10/2025 22:24

What about Christian fundamentalist, who also want women to cover up, submit to their husbands, and be more “modest”.

What about Jewish fundamentalist, who also make women cover up, and won’t sit next to women they don’t know on Planes & Buses?

Christianity also suppressed science and technology for centuries.

Good old fashioned misogyny runs deep through many religions.

As an Atheist, I dislike all religions, however, the difference is they aren’t expected to cover head toe. You wouldn’t know who was a Christian in general just by looking at their clothing.

It’s the lack of women’s right that really bothers me. Not allowed to leave the house unless accompanied by a male family member, even if it was a13 year old male child. Not allowed to work, or go to Uni etc.. In what way is that ever acceptable? I remember watching a documentary about Afghan women and it brought me to tears that they were so oppressed. One was a lawyer and had to give up work and go in to hiding. There is never any justification for the treatment of these poor women. Ever.

For balance, I think views on abortion in the US are also abhorrent and are going backwards regarding womens rights. Misogynistic ideas seem to cut through both of these religions and it’s women that suffer as usual!

Kendodd · 17/10/2025 11:43

I wonder if some of the problem with Islamic extremism is down to birth rates? Historically, across all cultures, societies with disproportionately high numbers of young men are more violent. Islamic countries and communities are one of the few places bucking the low birth rate trend and still having lots of children and have younger populations than most places. Add into this the massive preference for males and the toxic teachings of Islam, it an obvious receipe for trouble.

Original poster

diddlysquatagain · 17/10/2025 12:46

Notagain75 · 16/10/2025 23:09

What about Christian extremism?

@Notagain75 But we're not discussing that topic here.

And it's not such a deep and widespread problem.

OP posts:

Original poster

diddlysquatagain · 17/10/2025 12:48

CharlotteCChapel · 17/10/2025 11:15

It's religious fundamentally, not just Islam.

@CharlotteCChapel Yes, but - not sure you're read the title - we're discussing islamic fundamentalism on here.

Please deflecting, start a separate thread and I'd be happy to have views on that too.

OP posts:

Ellen2shoes · 17/10/2025 20:13

BundleBoogie · 17/10/2025 08:04

I can’t see anywhere in the MI5 website where they say that the threat of ‘far right terrorism’ is catching up with Islamic terrorism?

In fact their website says this:
Islamist terrorism is the most significant terrorist threat to the UK by volume.
Islamist terrorists are generally driven by an extreme interpretation of Islam or perceived grievances against ‘the West’, particularly those propagated by terrorist groups such as Daesh (also referred to as ISIL, ISIS or the Islamic State) or al-Qaeda. Much of the volume of the threat is from individuals who have self-radicalised, seeking to carry out attacks using unsophisticated or low-sophistication methodologies. Generally, individuals will decide themselves to conduct an attack, rather than the attack being directed or controlled by a terrorist group. This can make it harder to identify terrorist activity.

Can you point to any ‘far right’ terrorist attacks that have actually killed or maimed anyone in the UK in the last 20 years or so?

So far I have found one report of a group of 3 blokes who had never met in real life planned a terror attack against Jewish people but were caught and convicted.

Interestingly this is what MI5 say abut Islamic terrorism, it is so prevalent and so many people have been killed in the UK in the last 20 years that it has almost become synonymous. The reason for that is fact, not ‘anti Muslim’ sentiment.

Even the Southport murderer gained his inspiration from Islamic terrorist manuals.

International Terrorism
International terrorism refers to terrorism that goes beyond national boundaries in terms of the methods used, the people that are targeted or the places from which the terrorists operate. Since the emergence of Al Qaida in the 1990s, international terrorism has become largely synonymous with Islamist terrorism. Terrorist groups in Syria and Iraq, including Al Qaida and the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, possess both the intention and the capability to direct attacks against the West.
Linked to this, UK nationals travelling overseas to serve with extremist groups as ‘foreign fighters’ present a potential threat to the UK, both while they are overseas and when they return to the UK.

Thoughts?

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Islamist attacks have been a persistent threat for decades and must never be underestimated. However, if you had looked on the MI5 website in 2019, Extreme Right Wing terrorism would not have even been in their remit. After 5 years, it already accounts for a quarter of their terrorism caseload. What does that say to you? I’d say it’s a huge red flag.

Most worrying is the disproportionate number of children who are becoming radicalised. This is across the board but according to Prevent stats from Counter Terrorist Policing in 2023, there was a greater increase in referrals relating to Extreme Right Wing terrorism concerns (19%) than those relating to Islamic extremism (11%) and this is a growing trend.

This is our upcoming generation. Again, red flag?

Russia - huge threat to national security. Nathan Gill who was a Reform MP, has been found guilty of 8 charges of taking bribes to make statements in favour of Russia while he was an MP.

if this thread is genuinely about the concerns of national security and keeping the UK safe from terrorism, the conversation should include the Extreme Right Wing terrorism threat. Whether we like it or not, it’s growing fast. We have to look at a bigger picture otherwise it does appear to be Muslim bashing.

You can’t fight hate with hate.

Ellen2shoes · 17/10/2025 21:44

Or is this a culture war? A diversion?

EasternStandard · 17/10/2025 21:58