To think that it's about time islamic fundamentalism is dissected and challenged

[diddlysquatagain]

Did anyone read the very interesting article by Matthew Syed (sorry if behind a paywall) - Sunday Times: 'One thing has been holding back the Middle East for centuries':
https://www.thetimes.com/comment/columnists/article/middle-east-religious-fanaticism-iran-kcvh5knn3

"The Middle East was once the centre of the intellectual world. Then it went into reverse. The problem then, as now, is Islamic fundamentalism. No peace or prosperity is possible until the madrassas and other machines of indoctrination are confronted"

The question you asked me after I pointed out that no the persecution of gays in African countries by Christians in not in fact on the same scale as the persecution of gays in Muslim countries as you claimed.

Btw, the senior clergy in every mainstream Christian denomination have condemned the persecution of gays.

I think it’s just that people hesitate less before referring a white young man for suspected terrorist sympathies - how many Islamist suicide bombers wives claim they ‘had no idea’ what they had planned

Exactly. I think skylar white wasn't making that connection though. My point is islamic terrorism is the biggest threat we have to the UK. The rest of the globe isn't exempt either. I think skylar white was trying to suggest the edl is a comparable threat to islamic terrorism. Which would be laughable if you have a dark sense of humour I suppose.

I think whatever is said the response will be what about this.

Ahhh yes whataboutery. Either that or no response....

I had some training from anti terror police (or whatever they're called) just last month in my job and they said (with diagrams) the large majority of arrests, referrals and watch list are Islamic terrorism.

Frankly ANY kind of ‘fundamentalist’ version of any religion should be challenged - whatever that actually means. They’re all inevitably patriarchal, female suppressing and ridiculous. And it’s not ‘just’ fundamentalist Islam. Anyone bashing nuns for covering their hair or shouting abuse at them? Some Jewish women cover their hair for religious reasons. We going to abuse the men who wear the big furry hats? Look at what fundamentalist ‘Christians’ are doing in the states and (trying to do here) re women’s reproductive and health rights? Helping fund fundamentalist Zionists make Israel an apartheid state, and fight the Muslims (Gaza is the start) as the fundamentalist Christians want Armageddon to come soon so they get to heaven. As I said, ANY ‘fundamentalist religion’ should be countered. Don’t forget the hate-stirring is all part of the distraction plan. Hate immigrants, Muslims, blacks, Jews, foreigners, anyone not just like us (??!)…and let our governments continue to dine at the trough and help their friends make loadsa money
Or is this just another Islam bashing thread? Yes probably….

It is on the rise, yes.

But the biggest terror threats to this country remains Islamist extremism, and by a country mile I believe.

Re head covering, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone object to the hijab or similar. That is literally a headscarf, you don’t have to even be religious to cover your hair in that way.

It is specifically veils that cover the full face, especially with eyes.

You might disagree, but there are genuine reasons against full face covering.

I haven’t seen nuns or Jewish women wear burkas so that is irrelevant.

@goody2shooz - what a strange rant.

All extremists are not equal, mostly but not wholly through dint of numbers.

In this country we are a bit short of Christian fundamentalists, indeed men in “big furry hats” are a bit thin on the ground.

We do, however, have millions of people who follow - in its fundamentalist form - a religion which is culturally and legally at odds with the norm for this country. It is not racist to point this out. Are we supposed to nod along and accept that it’s all fine and dandy to marry your cousin, walk behind your husband and ensure you’re covered completely in public?

That’s it’s acceptable for your allegiance and voting intentions to be focused on your country of origin and aim for the whole country’s policy to reflect this? Or it is acceptable not to learn English - the international language?

So, yes, I think it’s fine to be Islamaphobic. That’s not being Muslim-phobic. There is a difference.

Very good post.

And I'm finding the deflections by some posters on here extremely tiring and unhelpful.

There is a subject heading - let's stick to it FGS!!

Hear hear @MaturingCheeseball . Since 2000 there have been over 25 terrorist attacks in Britain where radical Islam has been the motivating factor. How many have there been from extremists from other religions?

Here’s an example from today on Islamist extremism being a problem. Police can’t guarantee Jewish / Israeli fans’ safety because the local Muslim population wish them violent harm. This is unacceptable.

Maccabi Tel Aviv fans banned from Aston Villa match
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/gift/6bf857ac4948234d

Islam is incompatible with the west, it will never intergrate because doctrinally it cannot. It will always exist as a parallel society pushing for the preeminence of Islam. It is and always will be a foreign religion pushing foreign values and foreign cultures. It is as Frank Herbert said 'when I am weaker than you I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles.' Just look at any islamic revolution in recent history. All the useful leftists helped them out then got put up against the wall when they are no longer of use.

That is actually because the Israeli fans are notoriously dangerous

While some Maccabi fans are involved in provocative behaviour - such as chanting anti-Arab slogans and vandalising property (which is inexcusable too) - the majority of violence is directed at them, not initiated by them.

Yes, we should challenge it just as much as we challenge the Christian fundamentalists that are coming over from the US and seem like the white Christian taliban. They both want women subjugated no vote, no rights with her husband or male relative in charge of her, against homosexuality (Kings Army parade in Soho recently). Pastors springing up in the US with their hateful rhetoric against women are just as dangerous as the taliban. After all Iran and Afghanistan were once countries that had women enjoying the same freedoms we do. The right wing US money is coming over here with groups testing our boundaries around abortion clinics and protesting the rights of women in this country to have autonomy over their bodies.

This evangelical Christian fundamentalism is different from the Catholic Church and what the Pope is preaching. And it is equally as worrying.

Yes if we’re to be worried about all religions equally, how many?

I think the rather fundamental issue you have missed is that we need to be able to criticise all religions and their practices openly and without repercussions.

Afaik there have been no beheadings of people In Europe for criticism of Christianity. There are no teachers still in a police protection scheme after several years for making an unguarded comment about God.

Of the 66,000 girls in the UK that the government says are at risk of FGM, the tiniest proportion are from a Christian background - the rest are Muslim.

The vast majority of sane British society take a very dim view of first cousin marriage (the only people I’ve seen arguing in favour are on here bizarrely), especially repeated through generations despite the significant number of severely disabled babies produced.

The government are working with the Muslim Council of Britain in a definition of Islamophobia to be brought into law that will stop us criticising ‘expressions of Muslimness’. That will shut down free speech and make it far harder for us to call out unacceptable behaviour.

I’m not sure why you are so determined to minimise the obvious harm caused worldwide and in the UK in the name of Islam by constantly saying ‘well Christians do it too’. We criticise the relatively small number of fundamentalist Christians that may operate in far flung countries. We need to be able to criticise some Muslim practices worldwide and here too.

You are very confused. Iran and Afghanistan are Muslim countries.

The Muslim leaders have removed women’s human rights.

A small number of ‘right wing evangelicals’ are not murdering people, committing terrorist attacked or working with the government to silence us from criticising them. People keep making these ridiculous claims but they are not a group that has power and influence. Islamic leaders do. Our government is giving it to them.

What about Christian extremism?

How many Christian terror attacks have there been in this country since 2000?

Hoe many beheadings have Christians carried out in Europe in the last few years?

Come back when you’ve got the answers and then we can discuss how we criticise that sort of behaviour.

FGM is not an Islamic issue. It’s a geographical one, mostly centred around African nations. In some countries eg Nigeria, Tanzania, it’s far more common among Christian girls.

The threat of far right terrorism is catching up with the threat of Islamic terrorism within the UK. It’s far more nebulous, online and can be fuelled by Islamophobia. Check out the MI5 website:

The extreme right wing terrorism landscape has evolved away from structured groups towards a more diffuse threat where individuals form loose networks, often online. The ideologies and grievance narratives are varied, wide-ranging and often overlapping. They can encompass elements of cultural nationalism, white nationalism, and white supremacism and are often fuelled by conspiracy theories.
Extreme right-wing influencers operating globally online seek to fuel grievances and amplify conspiracy theories.

In the US, which Reform seeks to emulate, far right terrorism is the primary threat:

Trump administration

US justice department removes study finding far-right extremists commit ‘far more’ violence
Report finding rightwing extremists have killed more Americans than other domestic terrorist groups vanished from DoJ website

I’m not sure where you are getting your data from. The countries on this list are all majority Muslim, except Eritrea which is apparently 50:50 Muslim:Christian.

Countries with which UK residents are most likely to have links and which have a high prevalence of FGM, noting that estimates of FGM vary over time and between data sources
Change to table and accessible view
Estimated prevalence of FGM¹ (%)
Somalia 98
Egypt 87
Sudan 87
Sierra Leone 86
Eritrea 83
Gambia 76
Ethiopia 65

www.gov.uk/guidance/female-genital-mutilation-fgm-migrant-health-guide