To be increasingly enraged by 14 yr old DS's social etiquette

[GreenLingo]

Or more to the point - lack of etiquette.
Oldest child, first to hit teen years, so I've got no experience.
I need some advice.
I place a lot of importance on good manners and good etiquette. I just think it's so important in life.
I have drilled it in to my kids since they were old enough to start understanding, as in around 2 years old.
One of the things I'm really big on is being polite to others.
DS, as a primary school age child, up until he left at the age of 11, was a ray of sunshine. My God, I think back and he was just this ball of bright, radiant, happy, smiling, laughing, energy, he was a very engaged and engaging child. He constantly looked happy. And after all my hard work of teaching him manners and social etiquette, he displayed them beautifully. He would greet every adult he knew, i.e. my adult friends, DH's friends, adult family members such as my brother, my mum, the parents of his school friends, teachers, etc., with direct eye contact, a huge smile, and a hello. They would talk to him, ask how his day has been, and he would cheerfully and confidently answer them and openly chat to them whilst still maintaining eye contact and exhibiting brilliant social manners. Adults that are close family friends, and family members, would extend their arms to hug him and he would happily hug them and smile at them. I would receive endless compliments from these adults about how polite he was, and how good his manners were, and they would all comment on how lovely he was. He was like this right up to age of late 11.
When he started secondary school aged 12, he suddenly shut down socially and suddenly started to find direct eye contact difficult in conversation with these same adults, so he started looking away from them when they spoke to him - the exact same adults he'd spent his whole childhood happily chatting to and engaging with and spending loads of time with, so I'm talking about adults he knows really well - and he stopped smiling at these same adults.
I explained to him it is really important to look at someone when they are speaking to you, otherwise it looks rude, or sends signals that you're not listening, but literally overnight he just suddenly couldn't do it anymore.
I put it down to shyness maybe developing with the onset of puberty. He was growing much taller, his voice was changing, his appearance was changing, new secondary school changes, his lifelong best friend friendship broke down which upset him, and I just thought maybe he's overwhelmed by all these changes and is feeling self conscious. The same adults started commenting on it to me, noticing how different he was behaving towards them when they saw him, and were asking me if he was ok. I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass."
Fast forward another 2 years and his social manners are an absolute disgrace. My God, he is so rude to people. He won't look at them. He will not meet their direct eye contact. He won't smile at them. He won't say a basic hello to them. If he is asked a direct question by them, he won't answer in more than 1 word and even then he'll say it to the ground, not to their face. I've told him, if you're finding it difficult to talk to people, just at least smile at them. A smile can say so much. But he will not smile at anyone.
It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment. These are lovely, non intimidating adults who are either long standing family friends or family members who he has known and spent quality time with all his life.
Yesterday, I was on the village green talking to a mum friend. We have been to several parties at her house with DS. She has hosted him. Openly welcomed him at her house. He has given her a hug over the years upon arriving and leaving her parties with us. Yesterday, he walked past me and her on his way home from school, he wouldn't even look at her. She tried really hard to catch his eye to smile, and he just made sure he looked away. He would not look at or smile at her. I walked over to him whilst she was seeing to her dog, and asked him to please say hello to her. He would not. He wouldn't answer me and he wouldn't speak to her.
I could give umpteen examples of this. So many social situations where he is blanking my friends, blanking parents of his friends, people whose homes he has spent time in for years. Even to family members, my brother and mum, his uncle and grandmother, he has stopped hugging them and barely speaks a word to them.
I can see the confusion in people's faces, and I can see that they sometimes look a bit hurt, or a bit offended, by his blanking of them. No amount of me explaining to him about how he is coming across to others is having any impact. And believe me, I've talked to him about it over and over again.
Took DS to a medical appointment yesterday. A 45 minute consultation, where a professional was directly talking to him and trying to get information from him (he has a medical health condition). Not once would DS meet their eyeline. Not once did he give eye contact.
I took him to a GP last week because he was ill and needed antibiotics. Wouldn't look at the doctor at all when he was being spoken to.
2 old friends of mine visited, said hello and smiled to DS and he didn't smile back, he just gave a straight faced hello whilst looking down, then looked away. He walked off without saying a word to her, and my friend said to me "He doesn't want to see us does he" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and she looked visibly pissed off. This friend buys him birthday and Christmas presents every year, through his whole life and still to this day. I'd briefed him beforehand about manners and how he must ensure good manners and be polite to these close friends of mine, as I pre-empted what his behaviour would be like. Still, he still couldn't be polite.
I am really, seriously struggling with this.
I have talked to him over and over again about this. I understand a 14 year old boy isn't going to go around hugging adult women like he did when he was 6, and I understand that puberty brings self consciousness, but for God's sake, he can't say a basic hello and look at someone in the eye anymore?! It's insane.
What is going on with him?
If he'd been like this his whole life I'd have maybe some understanding, or at least acceptance. But how has he gone from such a bright, happy soul smiling and talking and looking at all the adults in his life, to this?

FFS

Mental health is the excuse for not saying hello now?

It is a gift that keeps on giving isn't it.

These are people he's known his entire life and has spent days out with, weekends away with.

All of the above. This is mostly normal. Nothing more excruciating than having to “perform” for your parents friends. I hated it, my kids hated it. We all grew out of it!

Oh he is lovely!
He is absolutely lovely!
This is why it's such a juxtaposition when he won't look at or engage with adults he's known closely for 14 years.
Thanks for reading my update.

This is who your son is right now so the first thing is acceptance. It’s massively hard to watch sweet boys turn into grunting teens but the best approach is leading with understanding (unless there are significant behavioural problems). At the moment, you’re pushing him further into that self conscious hole he’s hiding in because you’re just another person judging him. He has probably already picked up on your disapproval/discomfort around people and that can be really rough for kids (who ultimately crave acceptance and love from their parents).

I’d apologise to him for any comments he may have heard from other adults and say that you’ve noticed he’s become much more closed off to others than he used to be and you’re worried. Very gently, please stop caring more about your friends’ or family’s feelings and start tuning into your son. Be curious. Dont expect any info. But tell him all the time that if he needs help, you’re there and that you love him just as he is. Currently, you’re suggesting to him that he’s only loveable when he acts a certain way - that’s often how kids interpret this sort of dynamic. That creates a huge barrier between children and adults and can be very hard to repair. These are really fragile years. Stop people pleasing/worrying so much anbout what others think and just prioritise your son’s feelings over others. The more you stay on his side, the more he’ll trust you and maybe he’ll share whatever burdens he has with you.

Edited after seeing you update. It sounds like you have a good relationship already. So just cut him some slack. My husband grew up in a very sociable household and his mum always thought her friends were as important to him as they were to her. They were nice, sure, but as my son grew older, he preferred just hanging out with his family and actual friends and found some the constant socialising really frustrating. He always felt like he had to show up a certain way. This may not be the case for your son but I do think it’s important to remember that childish closeness with adults isn’t necessarily ‘real’ closeness. Now he’s older, he’s forming his own relationships/figuring out his place in the world and that’s part of his growing independence.

If he is so loving and cheerful with you, it is odd that he appears to be the opposite with your friends.
Yes he does sound rude.
I have had several teens here and whilst they could be grumpy at times with me, it never extended towards other adult friends visiting the house, or professionals they might meet.

I certainly wouldn't be passing on gifts from people that he could be so rude to.
I wouldn't be impressed and I wouldn't be excusing it either.

Is he like this with his friends?
I doubt it. It reads as if he turns it on and off a bit.
I would be having a very frank chat with him.
Manners are not something he gets to abandon because he can't be arsed.

This!

i was your son. My mum put a huge amount of pressure on me to be “perfect”, exemplary behaviour in public, manners, saying the correct words etc.

once I became more “aware” and picked up that I was being constantly judged by both her and her friends, and possibly my friends (his friendship breakdown may be a trigger?)- added to the issues of puberty and being conscious of how I came across to objects of my affection, so to speak, I developed severe social anxiety.

I simply didn’t know how to deal with people as a young adult. As a child you do what your parents tell you is right, but as a teen you get to know those behaviours aren’t Correct for all social groups.

so the paralysis hit me and i couldn’t do anything. I stopped going out, stayed in my comfort zone and spoke to as few people as possible. I was caught between knowing I wouldn’t get my manners right every time and in my head that would bring shame on my mum, and also what my friends thought. So I did nothing.

leave the boy alone. Stop expecting so much and let him find his own social societies and rules. Manners and etiquette is very different now to when my mum was young.

I thought the same.
Has you DS got acne? I remember a few years ago a friends son was a bit like this when you met him and it turned out he was embarrassed about his spots.
( He's ok now. )

I think I'd be more worried than pissed off, it sounds like he's suffering with crippling social anxiety.

It sounds like you have a lovely relationship, can you ask him how he feels and explain its not typical to feel such bad anxiety if that is the case and you'll help him get help?

Have you watched the Harry Enfield Kevin when he turns into a teenager? If not please watch, if you have already have, then why the surprise?

You're placing way too much value on manners and etiquette etc. He's probably either pushing back against it or just having an awkward phase. Yes it's good to be polite but everyone knows teenagers get a pass to be arsey sometimes. Let go of the value you attach to etiquette. It's really not important. And I say this as someone with one of the most "formal" jobs around. Having good manners is nice but there's more important things to life. I agree with others that your friend was just as rude as your son.

Good Lord OP - do you not remember being a teenager at all?

Poor kid - back off and leave him be.

OP I think you have to let this go and I hope this comes across ok but perhaps think about doing some work on your own self esteem and so forth. Your teenager is a separate person to you and you're not responsible for every move they make - you shouldn't feel so judged or uncomfortable if their behaviour isn't perfect. Nor are they here to reflect well on you and make you feel good about yourself.

Teenagers are very difficult but being "enraged" by lack of eye contact is such an over reaction. Imagine being your son who is clearly, for whatever reason, feeling uncomfortable with being social contact and being perceived. The constant criticism from you and your friends sounds quite unpleasant. I wish you could empathise with him and advocate for him with what he's going through. Your friends are adults and should be more gracious about a bit of teen surliness. You could say something out of his earshot like "Tom's finding social stuff a bit hard right now - gosh it's tricky being a teen isn't it. Hope you didn't take it personally."

This is a stage but how awful if it led to life long social anxiety or affected your good relationship and the trust you have because you made your disappointment and anger clear. Hope you can give this some thought OP and cut him some slack.

Your updates are nice, OP, though I still think you and your friends are taking this a bit personally.

We can’t know what’s going on. It could well be completely normal, or social anxiety. The PP who brought sexual development into the mix may be on to something. My understanding is that many young teenage boys can be aroused by any of us with the requisite parts, whether they would consciously consider us attractive or not.

If you’ve started noticing your mum’s friends physically, I imagine it could be very disconcerting to carry on treating them as usual until you comfortable with your sexuality. And not something you would discuss!

Not saying this is what’s going on but perhaps worth a thought?

Good grief. Allow your child/teen to be SO incredibly rude? It’s impossible to expect a basic hello and even a small smile to someone he’s known all his life? No wonder this country is going to the dogs.
@GreenLingo maybe it’s time you tried out your son’s behaviour on him to show him how it feels to be blanked, not even a small smile. Or ask him why he feels he can’t be the least bit polite.

Oh op, I think this a lot to be putting on him to be honest... I also really, really value manners and drill it into ds to be polite, but I also drill it into him that his boundaries are up to him and other people need to respect that. No way would I be telling him to hug people etc unless he himself wanted to. Its not his job to please other people and it never has been. Obviously there's a careful balance between this and not being rude as of course you want to bring your child up to be likeable and respectful because it makes everyone's life easier. But I think puberty is just a lot, his confidence has likely taken an absolute nose dive, he maybe doesn't even have the words to articulate why he suddenly can't do this stuff and you're kind of spot lighting it by emphasising it before he sees anyone and then obviously after.

This also stood out to me: "my friend said to me "He doesn't want to see us does he" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and she looked visibly pissed off. This friend buys him birthday and Christmas presents every year, through his whole life and still to this day."

I think your friend was actually quite rude there tbh. Everyone has been a teenager at some point, and knows its an awkward and difficult age. I think she was rude to react in the way she did. I buy my friends kids presents but I don't do it because of how polite they are to me and I certainly don't see it as a trade off in this way. Gifts are given freely- not to entitle you to conversation or connection. Why would a teenage lad want to stand and make awkward chat with two older women he doesn't know overly well. They're your friends, not his. I think you need to be very careful that you aren't so busy trying to make sure everyone else is happy that you end up forgetting that your loyalty lies to him first and foremost and sometimes as parents we have to accept that our kids make mistakes, feel uncomfortable and we make allowances for that within reason. I think he sounds like a normal teenage lad who's lost all sense of himself and if you want this to get better then focus on bigging him up, boost his confidence, talk really highly about him to people when he can hear you, point out his good traits or when he is kind/ helpful/ funny/ smart etc and lay off a bit otherwise. Being a teenager is hard stuff. You need to adjust your expectations, he's a teen not a robot and I am guessing these expectations probably extend to yourself. Are you a bit of a people pleaser by nature? You don't owe anyone the perfect child - yours is quite enough just as he is.

He did respond though and he did say hello. He just didn't make follow up conversation and make eye contact which is extremely hard when your confidence is in your boots.

Shy or sullen teenagers does not equal terrible at interviews. Im not sure why you'd equate someone being shy and minimally polite with someone being rude and unprofessional. There are so many people on this thread who have observed this behaviour with their children and its turned out to be a phase - its even less likely for it not to be a phase with this child because he's chatty with his family otherwise, surely?

He hates social interactions the more you push will not change this. Stop pushing him, when children are young they love to please adults as they get older they learn that they have their own minds. Just because you think they had a lovely time with these adults years ago doesn’t actually mean that’s what they think.

Tbh it sounds like you were previously parading him around like some sort of performing seal, and he is now fed up of it.

The language you use to describe him is very bizarre- “he would cheerfully and confidently answer them and openly chat to them whilst still maintaining eye contact and exhibiting brilliant social manners.” That sounds like what a judge at a dog show would say about a golden retriever, not a person.

Ime if you make too big a deal of things with teens they will often do the opposite. I can’t imagine your etiquette lectures are helpful.

Agree, interviews are something you can plan for and prepare for and practice - day to day conversation is not. Plus an interview is generally something you want to attend, so there's a very different motivating factor there. I know lots of teens who were very shy and getting a job really helped with that. Not all jobs require public facing roles or great social skills.

We have autism in our household so eye contact isn't a big deal. I have three sons and it's fairly normal. My eldest was so polite I had strangers comment on how delightful he was! Then he suddenly wasn't.

At 16 he got better and now will charm the pants off Total strangers and he tells me he talks to the homeless sitting with them at night at uni.

My 17 year old was a delight until 6 months ago and it seems is very late to the strop party.

My 13 year old has the mental age of a 6 year old and even he has gone rude and sulky!

If he still has glimmers, still occasionally shows you he is in there ( mine hug me, tell me they love me in between being horrible) then it's all very normal.

Wait until they wait until midnight to start a very intelligent deep conversation phase. That's worse then the sulking.

It all sounds very frustrating and confusing. I would say either he is rebelling due to the pressure from you to behave on a certain way, or he is very anxious, or he might be autistic. (I know you said he did eye contact and hugging etc when younger but autistic traits can come to the fore when they weren't obvious when younger simply due to the face that with age, life gets more complicated and complicated and the ability to hold to everything together reduces).

I don’t think a 14 year old not wanting to hug everyone is a sign he’s autistic tbh. I would think the opposite would be the case actually.

Omg, this.

Your post was suffocating, let alone your behaviour towards your poor son.

leave him alone.