To be increasingly enraged by 14 yr old DS's social etiquette

[GreenLingo]

Or more to the point - lack of etiquette.
Oldest child, first to hit teen years, so I've got no experience.
I need some advice.
I place a lot of importance on good manners and good etiquette. I just think it's so important in life.
I have drilled it in to my kids since they were old enough to start understanding, as in around 2 years old.
One of the things I'm really big on is being polite to others.
DS, as a primary school age child, up until he left at the age of 11, was a ray of sunshine. My God, I think back and he was just this ball of bright, radiant, happy, smiling, laughing, energy, he was a very engaged and engaging child. He constantly looked happy. And after all my hard work of teaching him manners and social etiquette, he displayed them beautifully. He would greet every adult he knew, i.e. my adult friends, DH's friends, adult family members such as my brother, my mum, the parents of his school friends, teachers, etc., with direct eye contact, a huge smile, and a hello. They would talk to him, ask how his day has been, and he would cheerfully and confidently answer them and openly chat to them whilst still maintaining eye contact and exhibiting brilliant social manners. Adults that are close family friends, and family members, would extend their arms to hug him and he would happily hug them and smile at them. I would receive endless compliments from these adults about how polite he was, and how good his manners were, and they would all comment on how lovely he was. He was like this right up to age of late 11.
When he started secondary school aged 12, he suddenly shut down socially and suddenly started to find direct eye contact difficult in conversation with these same adults, so he started looking away from them when they spoke to him - the exact same adults he'd spent his whole childhood happily chatting to and engaging with and spending loads of time with, so I'm talking about adults he knows really well - and he stopped smiling at these same adults.
I explained to him it is really important to look at someone when they are speaking to you, otherwise it looks rude, or sends signals that you're not listening, but literally overnight he just suddenly couldn't do it anymore.
I put it down to shyness maybe developing with the onset of puberty. He was growing much taller, his voice was changing, his appearance was changing, new secondary school changes, his lifelong best friend friendship broke down which upset him, and I just thought maybe he's overwhelmed by all these changes and is feeling self conscious. The same adults started commenting on it to me, noticing how different he was behaving towards them when they saw him, and were asking me if he was ok. I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass."
Fast forward another 2 years and his social manners are an absolute disgrace. My God, he is so rude to people. He won't look at them. He will not meet their direct eye contact. He won't smile at them. He won't say a basic hello to them. If he is asked a direct question by them, he won't answer in more than 1 word and even then he'll say it to the ground, not to their face. I've told him, if you're finding it difficult to talk to people, just at least smile at them. A smile can say so much. But he will not smile at anyone.
It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment. These are lovely, non intimidating adults who are either long standing family friends or family members who he has known and spent quality time with all his life.
Yesterday, I was on the village green talking to a mum friend. We have been to several parties at her house with DS. She has hosted him. Openly welcomed him at her house. He has given her a hug over the years upon arriving and leaving her parties with us. Yesterday, he walked past me and her on his way home from school, he wouldn't even look at her. She tried really hard to catch his eye to smile, and he just made sure he looked away. He would not look at or smile at her. I walked over to him whilst she was seeing to her dog, and asked him to please say hello to her. He would not. He wouldn't answer me and he wouldn't speak to her.
I could give umpteen examples of this. So many social situations where he is blanking my friends, blanking parents of his friends, people whose homes he has spent time in for years. Even to family members, my brother and mum, his uncle and grandmother, he has stopped hugging them and barely speaks a word to them.
I can see the confusion in people's faces, and I can see that they sometimes look a bit hurt, or a bit offended, by his blanking of them. No amount of me explaining to him about how he is coming across to others is having any impact. And believe me, I've talked to him about it over and over again.
Took DS to a medical appointment yesterday. A 45 minute consultation, where a professional was directly talking to him and trying to get information from him (he has a medical health condition). Not once would DS meet their eyeline. Not once did he give eye contact.
I took him to a GP last week because he was ill and needed antibiotics. Wouldn't look at the doctor at all when he was being spoken to.
2 old friends of mine visited, said hello and smiled to DS and he didn't smile back, he just gave a straight faced hello whilst looking down, then looked away. He walked off without saying a word to her, and my friend said to me "He doesn't want to see us does he" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and she looked visibly pissed off. This friend buys him birthday and Christmas presents every year, through his whole life and still to this day. I'd briefed him beforehand about manners and how he must ensure good manners and be polite to these close friends of mine, as I pre-empted what his behaviour would be like. Still, he still couldn't be polite.
I am really, seriously struggling with this.
I have talked to him over and over again about this. I understand a 14 year old boy isn't going to go around hugging adult women like he did when he was 6, and I understand that puberty brings self consciousness, but for God's sake, he can't say a basic hello and look at someone in the eye anymore?! It's insane.
What is going on with him?
If he'd been like this his whole life I'd have maybe some understanding, or at least acceptance. But how has he gone from such a bright, happy soul smiling and talking and looking at all the adults in his life, to this?

At the risk of being crude - 14 is the age when boys start to worry about getting spontaneous erections at inappropriate moments, and especially about everyone else in the world being extremely aware of them. Such as around mum's friends. Or other people's mum's.

if it’s social anxiety just explain to your firmed he is struggling with that. It does get very difficult for them. I totally understand. I felt despair even my dad said has she got bipolar the change was so sudden and bewildering.

He sounds great. It's really good you have no other major concerns about him. All the more reason to just let this go...

I mean this kindly, but I think you need to reframe your respective roles.

It's your job to parent your DS, it's not his job to shine reflected glory on you as a visible example of your parenting skills.

Keep reminding him of the importance of good manners, call out any blatant rudeness and job done. He'll get there in this end, it's just you won't get any "parenting points" from your friends in the meantime.

Friend’s son was like this. Slightly shy but polite and smiley at 11. At 14/15 I would say hello in the street on passing and would get either a surly glare, or face down with no response at all.
He was like this for years, then suddenly at 19 he transformed into polite, friendly and communicative again.
However, I have also known boys be like this when they are being bullied, so a few gentle chats in the car might be a good idea, to make sure nothing else is going on.

Can I ask, OP.
From your last post, he is saying hello to people, and he is in general a lovely, friendly, engaged teenager. He sounds brilliant, actually. He has so much going for him, and its not like he's not making any effort as he is saying hello to people, im struggling to understand why this bothers you so much. Is that worth inspecting? You say this is your first teenager, but im surprised that you are so dismayed, did you never encounter shy or awkward teenagers growing up yourself, did you grow up in a specific type of environment - or are you IN a certain type of environment now? (For example, i grew up working class and him saying hello with no eye contact would be considered absolutely fine where im from) Why does it cut so deep, to you, you think. Did you have a parent make you feel conscious about this when you were younger, are you in general quite self conscious or self critical?

I spent many years on the parents committee here. My/dc’s school has a grandparents day for the year 8’s. All those boys reaching puberty, trying to be cool together. Then grandma arrived, saw her baby and hugs, cuddles and love was all the go and those boys just sucked it up, sucked it up, I say, peer pressure or no peer pressure. But, just so you know, Mum would never have been allowed sou liberty.

Hang in there @GreenLingo. This stage doesn’t normally last forever.

In our family we don’t really talk to people until after a couple of meetings. So yes we shall say hello, smile but we like to suss people out first. 🫣. 😂

I would tell him he was rude. I corrected my teen in front of the other adult when they started to do this. They stopped. Only one thing more embarrassing than having to speak to adults and that’s having your mother tell you off in front of other adults.

I’m sorry but you sound really unhinged. Your son isn’t your prize to parade around and gush over how well raised he is. He’s a teenage boy going through major bodily and mental changes. Perhaps he has social anxiety? Anxiety? Depression? Struggling with something he doesn’t want to discuss? Could literally be anything. It just sounds like he’s a teenager and he doesn’t owe anyone anything. If your friends and peers can’t understand that he’s changed from when he was a little boy free of worries and anxieties, then they’re bad friends.

This entire thing reads me me me. You’re making something that is about your son about how you feel rather than how he feels. I hated saying hello to my mums friends when I was a teenager and I literally grew up with them being practically aunties to me. I’m 30 now and they came to my hen do, my wedding etc. They understood that I went through a teen phase where I was just a little moody cow. It happens.

If this is such a big focus of yours, I wonder if it’s a subconscious teenage rebellion of sorts. You sound fairly intense about all this. He’s his own person. Leave him be.

Honestly it will pass. My gorgeous adult son went through this aged 14-17. I was glad when the original version returned. I'd laugh it off with your friends and don't make a big deal of it with him. Show him love and understanding

Oh my God, leave him alone he's 14, poor kid. This is COMPLETELY normal and you are not helping.

Well, imagine a child submitting a glowing CV (to a college, University or employer) showing a brilliant spread of GCSEs, a wide range of extra curriculars, volunteer work etc.

Then they go to an interview.

"Good Morning. How are you today?"
"Good."
"OK, no chit chat then, let's get straight into the questions. What attracts you to (study Maths and Cambridge/ work at Tesco/ take up this Internship with PWC)?"
"Dunno."
"Could you expand upon that at all?"
"Not really." (rolls eyes, gets out phone, starts scrolling.)

Do you think they have a hope in hell?

Have you met many teenagers? Especially boys who often seem to feel more uncomfortable and have to deal with not knowing what pitch their words will come out at? It's hard for them. Their brains are changing, they're working themselves out and often have a lot of internal monologue. Being withdrawn could be a sign that he's depressed and the last thing anyone needs in that position is to be told to smile. He really doesn't need to say hi to everyone just because you're their friend. And if you're stood there chatting and he is avoiding your eye then just let him be and if you MUST say something afterwards then don't give him the "good manners matter' because it's respect" speech. , just ask him if there's a reason why he didn't say hi to Mrs Briggs or whoever.

You cannot force someone to make eye contact if it feels unnatural and uncomfortable to them. I remember my parents trying to force me at a similar age by excessively staring and I fucking hated it. Leave him be!

I really agree with this. The pressure that is put on teens to conform, perform, mime happiness, can crack up when they shift from childhood security to pre adulthood. They are finding out the world is unsafe and highly competitive. The old etiquette is exhausting and unrewarding. He can’t be OP’s perfect performing monkey anymore. He needs to find his own path forward.

No, I'm sorry to say you are completely in the wrong here. Do some research on children hitting puberty. Stop stressing him with this social friendliness.

And here we have the reason so many kids are rude little oiks.
The "let them be" brigade.🙄

No, a minimal "Hi Sue" is the VERY LEAST kids should do.

If they aren't capable of that, they aren't capable of i.e. having pocket money/ meeting their mates/ having a phone for a week.

It’s a shame that your focus is on how this makes you look to your social groups, rather than taking an interest in your son’s mental health. Is he suffering from social anxiety? Is he depressed? Maybe he feels he was used as a sort of show-pony for his mum and he’s tired of it? Or maybe it is just his hormonal changes. Puberty can be really rough for some kids. I would stop pressuring him.

You’ve not acknowledged anyone who has told you that this is normal, and it’s because of how he currently feels (which is generally that he’d like the ground to swallow him up).

You seem to care and awful lot about what other people think.

He's growing into his own person, you can't control him and the more you try the worse it will get.

He probably finds you just as embarrassing.

Sounds like he does what a lot of teen boys do and has turned into Kevin.

Teen boys don’t really want to be all happy chappy with their mum’s mates. Best to just say ‘teens eh’ to them. It’ll pass. I would check though that there isn’t something going on a school that is affecting his mood.

Also telling him to smile is very cringey and really not appropriate in this day and age. If someone demanded I smile I would not be very happy!

Honestly from your updates I now think you are being v unreasonable. Your son sounds lovely. The behaviour you are complaining of is just one aspect of his personality, reflecting his age & puberty. Rather than focusing on this I would be grateful that he still shows you affection - it is quite common for teenage boys to find this very difficult.

I think you need to read some of the material suggested in order to get a better view of the teenage experience. And I would reiterate that your sarcastic friend has not displayed good sense or kindness or indeed basic good manners- a much more serious failing in the context of an adult than in a teenage boy.