To be increasingly enraged by 14 yr old DS's social etiquette

[GreenLingo]

Or more to the point - lack of etiquette.
Oldest child, first to hit teen years, so I've got no experience.
I need some advice.
I place a lot of importance on good manners and good etiquette. I just think it's so important in life.
I have drilled it in to my kids since they were old enough to start understanding, as in around 2 years old.
One of the things I'm really big on is being polite to others.
DS, as a primary school age child, up until he left at the age of 11, was a ray of sunshine. My God, I think back and he was just this ball of bright, radiant, happy, smiling, laughing, energy, he was a very engaged and engaging child. He constantly looked happy. And after all my hard work of teaching him manners and social etiquette, he displayed them beautifully. He would greet every adult he knew, i.e. my adult friends, DH's friends, adult family members such as my brother, my mum, the parents of his school friends, teachers, etc., with direct eye contact, a huge smile, and a hello. They would talk to him, ask how his day has been, and he would cheerfully and confidently answer them and openly chat to them whilst still maintaining eye contact and exhibiting brilliant social manners. Adults that are close family friends, and family members, would extend their arms to hug him and he would happily hug them and smile at them. I would receive endless compliments from these adults about how polite he was, and how good his manners were, and they would all comment on how lovely he was. He was like this right up to age of late 11.
When he started secondary school aged 12, he suddenly shut down socially and suddenly started to find direct eye contact difficult in conversation with these same adults, so he started looking away from them when they spoke to him - the exact same adults he'd spent his whole childhood happily chatting to and engaging with and spending loads of time with, so I'm talking about adults he knows really well - and he stopped smiling at these same adults.
I explained to him it is really important to look at someone when they are speaking to you, otherwise it looks rude, or sends signals that you're not listening, but literally overnight he just suddenly couldn't do it anymore.
I put it down to shyness maybe developing with the onset of puberty. He was growing much taller, his voice was changing, his appearance was changing, new secondary school changes, his lifelong best friend friendship broke down which upset him, and I just thought maybe he's overwhelmed by all these changes and is feeling self conscious. The same adults started commenting on it to me, noticing how different he was behaving towards them when they saw him, and were asking me if he was ok. I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass."
Fast forward another 2 years and his social manners are an absolute disgrace. My God, he is so rude to people. He won't look at them. He will not meet their direct eye contact. He won't smile at them. He won't say a basic hello to them. If he is asked a direct question by them, he won't answer in more than 1 word and even then he'll say it to the ground, not to their face. I've told him, if you're finding it difficult to talk to people, just at least smile at them. A smile can say so much. But he will not smile at anyone.
It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment. These are lovely, non intimidating adults who are either long standing family friends or family members who he has known and spent quality time with all his life.
Yesterday, I was on the village green talking to a mum friend. We have been to several parties at her house with DS. She has hosted him. Openly welcomed him at her house. He has given her a hug over the years upon arriving and leaving her parties with us. Yesterday, he walked past me and her on his way home from school, he wouldn't even look at her. She tried really hard to catch his eye to smile, and he just made sure he looked away. He would not look at or smile at her. I walked over to him whilst she was seeing to her dog, and asked him to please say hello to her. He would not. He wouldn't answer me and he wouldn't speak to her.
I could give umpteen examples of this. So many social situations where he is blanking my friends, blanking parents of his friends, people whose homes he has spent time in for years. Even to family members, my brother and mum, his uncle and grandmother, he has stopped hugging them and barely speaks a word to them.
I can see the confusion in people's faces, and I can see that they sometimes look a bit hurt, or a bit offended, by his blanking of them. No amount of me explaining to him about how he is coming across to others is having any impact. And believe me, I've talked to him about it over and over again.
Took DS to a medical appointment yesterday. A 45 minute consultation, where a professional was directly talking to him and trying to get information from him (he has a medical health condition). Not once would DS meet their eyeline. Not once did he give eye contact.
I took him to a GP last week because he was ill and needed antibiotics. Wouldn't look at the doctor at all when he was being spoken to.
2 old friends of mine visited, said hello and smiled to DS and he didn't smile back, he just gave a straight faced hello whilst looking down, then looked away. He walked off without saying a word to her, and my friend said to me "He doesn't want to see us does he" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and she looked visibly pissed off. This friend buys him birthday and Christmas presents every year, through his whole life and still to this day. I'd briefed him beforehand about manners and how he must ensure good manners and be polite to these close friends of mine, as I pre-empted what his behaviour would be like. Still, he still couldn't be polite.
I am really, seriously struggling with this.
I have talked to him over and over again about this. I understand a 14 year old boy isn't going to go around hugging adult women like he did when he was 6, and I understand that puberty brings self consciousness, but for God's sake, he can't say a basic hello and look at someone in the eye anymore?! It's insane.
What is going on with him?
If he'd been like this his whole life I'd have maybe some understanding, or at least acceptance. But how has he gone from such a bright, happy soul smiling and talking and looking at all the adults in his life, to this?

Time to staring pushing for an adhd assessment

Really. Why is that? Please could you elaborate on why ADHD would be linked to this?
Genuinely keen to know.

Reading this again, it is so obvious you are more worried about YOUR social situation and what people think than you are about your child's wellbeing. If a child has changed that much my first thought would be has something happened? not be raging cause he's not hugging everyone his mum flipping knows.

He's a teenager, what teenager wants to continue with the hugs? Sit him down and ask him if he's OK.

You seem really preoccupied with eye contact. I find direct eye contact doesn’t come naturally to me, I don’t think I come across as rude. It would never occur to me to think someone was rude for not looking directly into my eyes when speaking to me.

I really do understand how this is difficult for you, but I can see it from your son's point of view and I think he's desperately trying to be as invisible as possible because all this nodding and smiling at your social circle is currently really difficult for him and it must feel like there's a spotlight on him and he resents it.

"The same adults started commenting on it to me, noticing how different he was behaving towards them when they saw him, and were asking me if he was ok. I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass." - He probably hated hearing that adults commenting on him like that.

"I've told him, if you're finding it difficult to talk to people, just at least smile at them. A smile can say so much. But he will not smile at anyone.
It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment." - I don't think its fair to expect children to demonstrate emotions when they are not feeling it.

You may not be consciously apologising.. as you've said you've already done that previously, but the "dying of embarrassment," standing and listening while a Friend says things like "He doesn't want to see us does he?" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and looking visibly pissed off, " is still adopting an apologetic stance. and She's spot on. He doesn't want to engage people who talk about him in that way.

I never ever apologised in front of him. He was never even there when friends commented to me about it. They would comment on it when we were out on our own, out for drinks or whatever, in adult only company, never when DS was there.
And the sarcastic friend did not say that in front of him or within earshot. She said it when he'd gone out of the house.

I haven't read all of your posts so apologies if I've missed this, but does this friend of yours have children? Because I really do feel, either way, she could have buttoned it.

No I don’t think so as ADHD is present since birth. I also think that the entire world would be diagnosed with something if you took snapshots out of their teenage years. (I’d be locked up for sure)

Here is a free assessment: he is a teenager, it’s shit

Prescription: time

Fair enough. I get that you are trying not to say this in front of him.

But, he does know exactly what is going on. Children always pick up on more than we think. k

"No amount of me explaining to him about how he is coming across to others is having any impact. And believe me, I've talked to him about it over and over again."

So he knows how you feel and how your friends feel, and you said this to him over and over again, so he knows its a really big deal to all of you. How does he feel?

I read that bit again about the friend trying to catch his attention as he was walking home and he was looking down or elsewhere. I really feel for him, after a hard day at school just trying to get home to have another of your friends wanting a reaction from him which he knows will probably be not considered enough. He must have caught you both looking at him from a distance. Why was it so bad for him to just head home? This looking down/pretending he can't see is not bad manners or insolence, he's trying to avoid attention.

Its clear that you are very concerned about him, but he probably needs a bit of space as this is becoming a much bigger deal than it needs to be.

Unless your friend has multiple teenagers, I would ignore her. There are people who have been to Vegas, and people who have not.

Such a sad post. You back your children who choose to be impolite?

No, feel you are doing them a disservice in the long run.

I agree people should not be people pleasers - I am a similar age to you and our generation is full of us being like this.

But your post shows a swing far too much the other way. Manners cost nothing, and a simple Hello/Hi is the minimum we should expect.

A 2 letter word is in no way "energy sapping". In fact it is easier just to automatically say it and move on, than to twist yourself in knots being your 'authentic self' by NOT saying it and having to cope with the "🙄" looks I am sure.

She has 2 boys aged 18 and 16.
Both say hello and engage in brief but courteous small talk with me when I see them.
I've known them all of their lives, as she has known DS all of his.
(She did not make her comment about DS in front of him. He had left the building before she said it.)

So she's familiar with teenage boys then. I doubt her two have been angels and even if they are she still could have chosen to say nothing. She's the one who's made you feel shit, your boy will be fine.

I'm sorry you've copped a lot of flak on this this thread but it's not really your boy you need to be easier on, it's you.

My dd is nearly 14 and can also be quite surly in front of adults she has known all her life . I pull her up about it afterwards and am hoping she grows out of it but her friens' parents all say she is an absolute pleasure so l think the strops are for my benefit!

There are so many wild accusations going on in this thread, that I'm leaving now.
People saying my friend is out of order for saying what she said in front of DS. Only I never said she said it in front of him. She didn't say it in front of him. He wasn't even in the building when she said it, and I never said he was there when she said it.
People saying I puppeted DS as a child, or that I paraded him around seeking approval from my friends. I never said I did this. I never, ever did this. Nowhere in my post did I say I did this.
People saying I forced him to hug people. WTF. I never forced him to hug people. I never said I did this. I don't agree with telling children to hug people.
People saying I apologised about him to my friends in front of him. I never said I do this. Where in my post did I say I apologise in front of him or when he's within ear shot? I never said that. It's a massive supposition. I would never demoralise him by apologising about him when he's there or nearby and could hear.
So many insane leaps of judgement on here. People literally making up lies. So I'm out.
I'm off to watch a movie with my lovely DS who has just invited me to snuggle up with him on the sofa to watch it with him. And I won't be back to this thread.

Please, it's the nature of this place sometimes for things to get distorted. Just don't feel bad about yourself, or your son.

You also said you’d never ever apologised for him, which turns out to be untrue.
You’ve kicked into defence mode which of course is your prerogative. But you were originally asking for help. People have told you to stop.
It’s up to you what you do with that. Good luck. Your son sounds amazing. Beware of crushing his spirit.

Maybe it’s a generational thing but I was never allowed to be slack about manners when I was a kid and it served me well. I was encouraged to “be a lady”, so to be interested in other people and be aware of how you can make a difference by being nice which costs nothing and treat everyone well.
In the course of my work I deal with young adults and many struggle even to make simple requests in a civil way. “Can I get?” “I want”. No pleasantries, little respect or anticipation of pleasure from simple human interaction. I feel sorry for them. The op seems simply to want her son to be the best version of himself. It will come.

Thanks but I didn’t come on here asking if I was being unreasonable. The OP did. So I’m not interested in what you think.

Sounds like he’s got a bit self conscious due to puberty and you’ve made it worse by making a big deal of it. Leave him alone, don’t mention it again, and stop trying to control his interactions with other people. Tell your friends/family he’s okay it’s just puberty making him feel/act awkward and they’ll understand.

And yet in your opening post you wrote

" I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass."
Which is it?

This. Poor kid. Stop with the - 'will you smile' 'will you be nice' - stop pecking at his head. As someone said above, Please stop pressurising him and making it all about how it makes you feel OP. You say "It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment." This screams ME ME ME - give the kid a break. Don't be surprised if he turns round and tells you to fuck off - I would.