To be increasingly enraged by 14 yr old DS's social etiquette

[GreenLingo]

Or more to the point - lack of etiquette.
Oldest child, first to hit teen years, so I've got no experience.
I need some advice.
I place a lot of importance on good manners and good etiquette. I just think it's so important in life.
I have drilled it in to my kids since they were old enough to start understanding, as in around 2 years old.
One of the things I'm really big on is being polite to others.
DS, as a primary school age child, up until he left at the age of 11, was a ray of sunshine. My God, I think back and he was just this ball of bright, radiant, happy, smiling, laughing, energy, he was a very engaged and engaging child. He constantly looked happy. And after all my hard work of teaching him manners and social etiquette, he displayed them beautifully. He would greet every adult he knew, i.e. my adult friends, DH's friends, adult family members such as my brother, my mum, the parents of his school friends, teachers, etc., with direct eye contact, a huge smile, and a hello. They would talk to him, ask how his day has been, and he would cheerfully and confidently answer them and openly chat to them whilst still maintaining eye contact and exhibiting brilliant social manners. Adults that are close family friends, and family members, would extend their arms to hug him and he would happily hug them and smile at them. I would receive endless compliments from these adults about how polite he was, and how good his manners were, and they would all comment on how lovely he was. He was like this right up to age of late 11.
When he started secondary school aged 12, he suddenly shut down socially and suddenly started to find direct eye contact difficult in conversation with these same adults, so he started looking away from them when they spoke to him - the exact same adults he'd spent his whole childhood happily chatting to and engaging with and spending loads of time with, so I'm talking about adults he knows really well - and he stopped smiling at these same adults.
I explained to him it is really important to look at someone when they are speaking to you, otherwise it looks rude, or sends signals that you're not listening, but literally overnight he just suddenly couldn't do it anymore.
I put it down to shyness maybe developing with the onset of puberty. He was growing much taller, his voice was changing, his appearance was changing, new secondary school changes, his lifelong best friend friendship broke down which upset him, and I just thought maybe he's overwhelmed by all these changes and is feeling self conscious. The same adults started commenting on it to me, noticing how different he was behaving towards them when they saw him, and were asking me if he was ok. I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass."
Fast forward another 2 years and his social manners are an absolute disgrace. My God, he is so rude to people. He won't look at them. He will not meet their direct eye contact. He won't smile at them. He won't say a basic hello to them. If he is asked a direct question by them, he won't answer in more than 1 word and even then he'll say it to the ground, not to their face. I've told him, if you're finding it difficult to talk to people, just at least smile at them. A smile can say so much. But he will not smile at anyone.
It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment. These are lovely, non intimidating adults who are either long standing family friends or family members who he has known and spent quality time with all his life.
Yesterday, I was on the village green talking to a mum friend. We have been to several parties at her house with DS. She has hosted him. Openly welcomed him at her house. He has given her a hug over the years upon arriving and leaving her parties with us. Yesterday, he walked past me and her on his way home from school, he wouldn't even look at her. She tried really hard to catch his eye to smile, and he just made sure he looked away. He would not look at or smile at her. I walked over to him whilst she was seeing to her dog, and asked him to please say hello to her. He would not. He wouldn't answer me and he wouldn't speak to her.
I could give umpteen examples of this. So many social situations where he is blanking my friends, blanking parents of his friends, people whose homes he has spent time in for years. Even to family members, my brother and mum, his uncle and grandmother, he has stopped hugging them and barely speaks a word to them.
I can see the confusion in people's faces, and I can see that they sometimes look a bit hurt, or a bit offended, by his blanking of them. No amount of me explaining to him about how he is coming across to others is having any impact. And believe me, I've talked to him about it over and over again.
Took DS to a medical appointment yesterday. A 45 minute consultation, where a professional was directly talking to him and trying to get information from him (he has a medical health condition). Not once would DS meet their eyeline. Not once did he give eye contact.
I took him to a GP last week because he was ill and needed antibiotics. Wouldn't look at the doctor at all when he was being spoken to.
2 old friends of mine visited, said hello and smiled to DS and he didn't smile back, he just gave a straight faced hello whilst looking down, then looked away. He walked off without saying a word to her, and my friend said to me "He doesn't want to see us does he" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and she looked visibly pissed off. This friend buys him birthday and Christmas presents every year, through his whole life and still to this day. I'd briefed him beforehand about manners and how he must ensure good manners and be polite to these close friends of mine, as I pre-empted what his behaviour would be like. Still, he still couldn't be polite.
I am really, seriously struggling with this.
I have talked to him over and over again about this. I understand a 14 year old boy isn't going to go around hugging adult women like he did when he was 6, and I understand that puberty brings self consciousness, but for God's sake, he can't say a basic hello and look at someone in the eye anymore?! It's insane.
What is going on with him?
If he'd been like this his whole life I'd have maybe some understanding, or at least acceptance. But how has he gone from such a bright, happy soul smiling and talking and looking at all the adults in his life, to this?

This

Ha ha welcome to the world of teenage boys. This is entirely normal!

You sound absolutely awful op. Has it not occurred to you to be worried about him rather than annoyed?

You sound more bothered about it being a reflection of you, wanting praise and compliments on how well you’ve raised him or whatever.

My mum was like you OP, and it just made my social anxiety much worse and longer lasting. To this day I still have to check with myself if my behaviour might have offended someone, if I smiled enough etc. Now my teen is also awkward socially I just tell myself anyone who can be offended by a teen's social awkwardness isn't worth worrying about.

Personally I would not listen to people saying it’s all about you. I have experienced this and when it’s a drastic change it is concerning. I was told I am drama queen by family, she is now awaiting assessment. Sometimes it’s around puberty that it because very obvious and the change is more than just puberty and you know it in your gut.

Normal behaviour IMO.
I am a GP. When I see teenage boys this is exactly what I expect and usually what I get. I always direct my questions to them but the adult with them answers, when they don't. I don't perceive it as deliberate rudeness and I doubt the GP you saw did. It's just adolescent social awkwardness. I definitely don't judge the parent for not drilling in manners. If anything my concern would be is this young person depressed, does it go deeper than normal, is there anything going on that is affecting their emotions.
Girls are mostly better, some are very articulate and engaged with me, but not always.

Op you are weirdly obsessed with what other people think. I mean, way way too concerned. Get a grip. What’s it about? A need to impress? People pleasing? Pride? Ego? This is not about you. Your son is not you. Or a reflection of you. Whether he is polite, clever, kind, outgoing, withdrawn, rude or otherwise, it’s his life, his choice and his ‘reputation’. If you must focus on the opinions of others make it the opinions of your son. What’s going on for him? What is he really like, when he’s not ‘performing’ for you or others? What matters to him? Your relationship with him is what’s important, and who knows, if you stop obsessing about ‘what people think’ and what you want him to be you might find that relationship improves if you let him be. Plus it might help you be more true to you self at the same time. I’ve learned this from experience. And it’s freeing, I promise.

Wow - your op is intense! He sounds like a typical teenager. You’ve said he’s generally lovely and well behaved. Be thankful he’s not out all night, slamming doors, doing drugs. If the worst my kids do is want to keep themselves to themselves especially if they are feeling a bit awkward or anxious around other grown ups then I’ll take that! It sounds like you are more worried about what your friends think of you and him - he’s probably got no interest in them any more - he’s a teenage boy with his own friends trying to find his own way. I don’t think my brother spoke to us for about 3 years once he started senior school - it really was Kevin and Perry! But he’ll grow up eventually.

Why are you so fixated on your friends, and not your son?
He's a teenager, he will get over it.

you do have a point that this type of rudeness is annoying but it seems that you use him to make yourself feel proud. You’re paying too much attention to looking ‘good’ for others. Sorry to be so blunt but I think you need to hear this

Probably due to the current state of secondary schools where you’re not allowed to make eye contact or talk without getting a blue slip 😅 also treated like second class citizens but their teachers!

Mine haven’t been as extreme as this but it’s extremely common. And one of mine certainly wasn’t hugging and kissing me and telling me he loved me…

As others have said, leave him be. If you want some insight into the changes children go through which isn’t a heavy read (in fact it’s a picture book) try to get hold of “zagazoo” by Quentin Blake. It’s so reassuring.

PS I’ve just googled it and found that there’s an animated version on iPlayer : www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001t407/zagazoo

Oh man, i haven't rtft but what i have read is making me feel physically sick. Its bringing back reminders of how controlling my mum was with me, she was a massive hyacinth Bucket and everything was all about her and how things reflected on her and what she thought I should do to make her look good and not reflect badly in any way, so my social skills were always controlled, "Do this, say that, dont say anything to embarrass me, how could you say that?"

Im nearly 40 and im a complete social mess now, i struggle to make friends and relate to people, i lack any confidence in myself, i cant even ask for the bloody bill at a restaurant because of the anxiety of speaking to people, because i was brought up that if what i said wasnt on The "Supreme leaders" approved list of things to say without showing her up it was somehow wrong, - basically, i wasnt allowed to ever develop my own perosonality and it has SEVERELY affected me all my life.

I always knew what had caused it but someone here on mumsnet pointed out specifically what it was

"Covert Narcissistic Mother"

I wasnt seen as my own person, i was seen as an extension of her and i had to be controlled to say and do as she wanted so that everything always reflected well on my mum.

Obviously I don't know everything but paragraphs and paragraphs of it all being about you and how you're embarrassed and how it makes you look is really making me feel for the poor lad because thats what really fucked me up continual regimented treatment with no room to develop as an individual leaves you with a stunted social life and lacking necessary life skills to be happy.

Give the kid some room to be himself without the reminders every few minutes about how he should behave, he's bloody 14, and old enough to know, but he is allowed to have his own feelings and you're teaching him to put others before his own 100% of the time... You're raising a people pleaser.

I know you feel embarrassed and this is important to you, but your son is becoming his own person. You are alienating him by constantly trying to control his behaviour. This is the time to try to connect with your son whenever you can. Do things he enjoys with him and try to find things to laugh about together. I have a 14 year old son too, just so you know I'm not judging. I find things difficult about him too, but I know I've got a very short time with him at home, only a few years and he will be gone. Have faith that you've done a good job raising your child, this stage will pass.

I think you should be more concerned about what is going on for your son than about other people's opinions. He's not "performing" the way you want him to, but it's not fair to ask him to "perform" when he clearly can't or won't, just now.
He will grow out of it, I imagine.

I hate making eye contact tbh..it's extremely uncomfortable 😬

Feels like I'm staring into their soul if I have to look directly into someone eyes. However you're expected to and have to pretend to do the thing and I work in retail so personally just try to fake it and I kind of try and focus roughly on their eyebrows as it sort of does the whole eye contact thing without the horrendous "my brain is on fire" feelings it involves in your ND brain.

That may only be applicable to those that have ND conditions I assume everyone else doesn't have an issue doing it 🤷🏼‍♀️

I dn't get it, Kit. I believe one should look people straight in the eyes when talking to them and always taught my son to be the same. When people's eyes dart away all the time during a conversation it's as if they are not being straightforward, are evasive and would rather be elsewhere. I can understand it in youngsters and children who are not yet sure of themselves but that's different.

Therefore do fake it as much as you can and it will become normal for you, Kit.

Read your first post again. You do come over incredibly overbearing. If this is teenage self consciousness or anxiety do you feel the pressure you constantly put on him to do this, do that, say this, say that, look like this, look like that is making the situation any better? With kindness back off and let the poor kid breathe. Your sound suffocating. Back right off, do nothing and rethink this before you make things any worse. Being a nag does nothing for anxiety. I really think you need to rethink your entire approach on this and start again.

@KitTea3
When you say this may only be applicable to those that have ND conditions, could you elaborate on what you mean by this? Why would ND mean someone struggles with eye contact? What do you mean by saying it feels like your brain is on fire if you look someone in the eye?
Sorry, I don't mean to pry too much, but I'm really keen to understand this better, in case there is something else going on with DS.

"pressure you constantly put on him to do this, do that, say this, say that, look like this, look like that"
I don't tell him to do this, do that, say this, say that, look like this, look like that.
Do calm down.
I'm simply telling him to say hello and goodbye, and answer if he's asked how he is.

He sounds like he’s really suffering / his mental health is really in need of help… I would be incredibly concerned about the welfare of my child if there was such a change. He sounds like at a minimum to have severe social anxiety developed at secondary transition, if not depression. I have worked with 11-18 year olds for 5+ years and he is displaying all the signs we are trained to identify (withdrawal, extreme personality change, unable to make eye contact) that you need to act now and support him.

OP, I’ve read your updates but not everyone’s responses, so this may already have been said.

What I thought when I read that he’s still bright and personable with you and regales you with stories about school, etc. is that it sounds like his refusal to engage with your friends is about him trying to distance himself from you - a typical and developmentally important stage for a teenager. You said you talk to him about manners in a broad sense telling him how important they are in the world. But within his world they may well not be the case at the moment. Those good manners may be a magnet for bullying at school, being smiley and confident with teachers can be a focus for ridicule from your mates in a lot of teen circles. So what you are telling him may be something he’s currently questioning. He’s starting to try and find his own way. He won’t have forgotten all you’ve told him, but it may be a while before it becomes useful to him again.

I would say cut him some slack, but it doesn’t sound like you’re coming down hard on him, so maybe you need to give yourself some slack. Don’t feel guilty when he blanks your friends. Roll your eyes with them, apologise, shake your head, say something like “I’m sorry. Nothing I say changes it. I’m hoping it’s just a phase.” And with him, focus more on the things he’s doing so well at.

Thank you for your balanced and insightful response. I will take on board what you've said.
You're right to say it doesn't sound like I'm coming down hard on him; I'm really not. I'm actually being the opposite with him - very gentle and kind towards him. He doesn't know I feel like I do! I would never in a million years tell him how it's making me feel as this would be too much pressure for him, I'd never do that to him, despite what dozens of posters on this thread are accusing me of.
And as for people here saying I parade him around, show him off and force him to hug people - I have never done any such thing and I never would do!
So thank you for giving an intelligent response. It is most welcome.

Apologies I have not read all the comments so this may already have been said but it sounds to me like he’s found who he wants to be rather than who you want him to be. Forcing a child to hug people, for example, seems like a weird thing to me. Why would you make a child hug someone? That’s weird. He’s deciding now what he wants to accept rather than what’s been forced upon him. He’s chosen autonomy.