To be increasingly enraged by 14 yr old DS's social etiquette

[GreenLingo]

Or more to the point - lack of etiquette.
Oldest child, first to hit teen years, so I've got no experience.
I need some advice.
I place a lot of importance on good manners and good etiquette. I just think it's so important in life.
I have drilled it in to my kids since they were old enough to start understanding, as in around 2 years old.
One of the things I'm really big on is being polite to others.
DS, as a primary school age child, up until he left at the age of 11, was a ray of sunshine. My God, I think back and he was just this ball of bright, radiant, happy, smiling, laughing, energy, he was a very engaged and engaging child. He constantly looked happy. And after all my hard work of teaching him manners and social etiquette, he displayed them beautifully. He would greet every adult he knew, i.e. my adult friends, DH's friends, adult family members such as my brother, my mum, the parents of his school friends, teachers, etc., with direct eye contact, a huge smile, and a hello. They would talk to him, ask how his day has been, and he would cheerfully and confidently answer them and openly chat to them whilst still maintaining eye contact and exhibiting brilliant social manners. Adults that are close family friends, and family members, would extend their arms to hug him and he would happily hug them and smile at them. I would receive endless compliments from these adults about how polite he was, and how good his manners were, and they would all comment on how lovely he was. He was like this right up to age of late 11.
When he started secondary school aged 12, he suddenly shut down socially and suddenly started to find direct eye contact difficult in conversation with these same adults, so he started looking away from them when they spoke to him - the exact same adults he'd spent his whole childhood happily chatting to and engaging with and spending loads of time with, so I'm talking about adults he knows really well - and he stopped smiling at these same adults.
I explained to him it is really important to look at someone when they are speaking to you, otherwise it looks rude, or sends signals that you're not listening, but literally overnight he just suddenly couldn't do it anymore.
I put it down to shyness maybe developing with the onset of puberty. He was growing much taller, his voice was changing, his appearance was changing, new secondary school changes, his lifelong best friend friendship broke down which upset him, and I just thought maybe he's overwhelmed by all these changes and is feeling self conscious. The same adults started commenting on it to me, noticing how different he was behaving towards them when they saw him, and were asking me if he was ok. I used to apologise and explain that puberty had brought a sudden attack of shyness with it and they would all sagely nod and say "Ah I see, of course, yes. It'll pass."
Fast forward another 2 years and his social manners are an absolute disgrace. My God, he is so rude to people. He won't look at them. He will not meet their direct eye contact. He won't smile at them. He won't say a basic hello to them. If he is asked a direct question by them, he won't answer in more than 1 word and even then he'll say it to the ground, not to their face. I've told him, if you're finding it difficult to talk to people, just at least smile at them. A smile can say so much. But he will not smile at anyone.
It's killing me, socially. I'm dying of embarrassment. These are lovely, non intimidating adults who are either long standing family friends or family members who he has known and spent quality time with all his life.
Yesterday, I was on the village green talking to a mum friend. We have been to several parties at her house with DS. She has hosted him. Openly welcomed him at her house. He has given her a hug over the years upon arriving and leaving her parties with us. Yesterday, he walked past me and her on his way home from school, he wouldn't even look at her. She tried really hard to catch his eye to smile, and he just made sure he looked away. He would not look at or smile at her. I walked over to him whilst she was seeing to her dog, and asked him to please say hello to her. He would not. He wouldn't answer me and he wouldn't speak to her.
I could give umpteen examples of this. So many social situations where he is blanking my friends, blanking parents of his friends, people whose homes he has spent time in for years. Even to family members, my brother and mum, his uncle and grandmother, he has stopped hugging them and barely speaks a word to them.
I can see the confusion in people's faces, and I can see that they sometimes look a bit hurt, or a bit offended, by his blanking of them. No amount of me explaining to him about how he is coming across to others is having any impact. And believe me, I've talked to him about it over and over again.
Took DS to a medical appointment yesterday. A 45 minute consultation, where a professional was directly talking to him and trying to get information from him (he has a medical health condition). Not once would DS meet their eyeline. Not once did he give eye contact.
I took him to a GP last week because he was ill and needed antibiotics. Wouldn't look at the doctor at all when he was being spoken to.
2 old friends of mine visited, said hello and smiled to DS and he didn't smile back, he just gave a straight faced hello whilst looking down, then looked away. He walked off without saying a word to her, and my friend said to me "He doesn't want to see us does he" in a sarcastic and challenging tone of voice, and she looked visibly pissed off. This friend buys him birthday and Christmas presents every year, through his whole life and still to this day. I'd briefed him beforehand about manners and how he must ensure good manners and be polite to these close friends of mine, as I pre-empted what his behaviour would be like. Still, he still couldn't be polite.
I am really, seriously struggling with this.
I have talked to him over and over again about this. I understand a 14 year old boy isn't going to go around hugging adult women like he did when he was 6, and I understand that puberty brings self consciousness, but for God's sake, he can't say a basic hello and look at someone in the eye anymore?! It's insane.
What is going on with him?
If he'd been like this his whole life I'd have maybe some understanding, or at least acceptance. But how has he gone from such a bright, happy soul smiling and talking and looking at all the adults in his life, to this?

Thank you. I am taking your helpful advice on board.
But re the red flags, does this still apply if he's not like it at home with us, nor with his friends? His friends find him good company and fun, and seek him out to hang out with. And at home he's a smiley, happy, affectionate, loving, fun, cuddly, engaged boy. He has no problem whatsoever looking directly at me when he's talking to me. Ditto DH and DS.
Is it a mental health concern if he's as I described with all adults including family and family friends (except me and DH) and other children that he doesn't know so well? I am very open to learning more about this so I can support him.

For me, it was my daughter. She morphed into someone else entirely at age 13. Think Kevin and Perry attitude. At 16 she morphed back. Letting you know so you can see there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Could it be mental health issues? Autitism? Any changes recently? Any vaccination or infections?

It doesn't sound normal growing up with 4 older brothers they were all fantasticly polite and mature as teens. My oldest brother used to help peoppe cross the road and he wasn't taught that. Maybe all the pressure to be so polite and a people pleaser growing up has now backlashed? Wasn't something my parents ever had to teach us. We just mimicked our elders.
Maybe he is rebellion from being corrected over the years.
Did you take the apt with the Dr to address it?

Oh my God,
WHERE have I said I force him to hug people?!?!?
I have NEVER done this, and I WOULD NEVER do this to him!!
I have said that when the adults in his life would extend their arms to give him a hug, he would happily hug them. I never bloody forced this!!!!! I actually used to tell him you only have to reciprocate a hug if you feel comfortable to do so and if you don't then that's ok! I was telling him this as a young child! My point is that these adults that he is now blanking are those same adults he used to happily hug! I've NEVER forced this!!!!

Omg you are so desperately trying to impress your friends. Maybe it’s time to realise your children are not you and let them be themselves. My mum used to parade my sister and I around, practically levitating with smugness at the compliments of how ‘polite’ and ‘mature’ and well behaved we were. All it did was make us very very aware of how much her self esteem rested on our public behaviour: that’s a burden for a child.

my current 14 yr old has been similar, he’ll grow out of it just like his older brother did.

If it’s just specific adults he is withdrawn are d I would be asking in the car or out for a walk,

• hey, has something happened? I notice you seem unhappy when x y z are over
• im worried about you, do you want to talk?
• I noticed you seem upset when x y z are here. Is everything okay?

being next to each other rather than face to face makes it easier for teens to open up, especially in an activity (say you got a nice hot drink and a walk around a park). He might feel confident answering those questions, you might get an answer.

if it were specific people, in my job we would put forward the idea of some kind of mistreatment of child by those people. Doesn’t mean it is- thats
just what I’m trained to identify. He’s comfortable with friends and family, but not adults (even if he knows them) and it’s a sudden change? Could be an issue with a teacher at new school that’s made him lose trust, or something he’s overheard someone say etc if they come over for a gossip or drinks etc. but it is worth taking the MH side of it seriously and asking open ended questions. He might have no idea why, or he might feel he’ll be in trouble for telling the truth (because children are born egotistical - he’ll assume he’s at fault). I know it’s so hard, but if he doesn’t want to share, move on and talk about other stuff. Just let him know you’re there to listen and anything he tells you is safe with you.

hope this helps and doesn’t come across as patronising or anything. I don’t know your background in childhood MH so tried to cover all bases :)

Ah OP I can see this is really bothering you. I just don't really understand why! You've got a lovely teen who's going through a very normal grunting phase. Honestly count your blessings.

I was like this as a teen, everything was embarrassing. It wasn’t as bad as your son but I had a happy school life at least. But I definitely hated being social with adults. I grew out of it from 15

Ok. Apologies. I read your post that you had been quite strong in your expectations of social etiquette. I didn’t read that you had been careful to ensure that your child’s choice had been paramount during this. Your OP read very much that your expectations of your child’s behaviour was extremely high and that their behaviour has an effect on your own perception of your personal social standing. You seem disappointed that your child has become his own person. But I was wrong about the hugging and you didn’t force that.

Oh jeeze, I know someone who stares straight into my eyes and never even flickers when they talk to me, and I hate it. It's horribly uncomfortable and I have to look away.
I'm straightforward, I'm not evasive, but yes, I'd rather be elsewhere, but only because the stare freaks me out.

What you do is bizarre, sorry.

Shocked at the people saying older people aren't interesting to him, and be doesn't owe them his attention.
And that this is common for boys.
How low are your standards!???
Utterly lax.

Basic manners are expected and have to be expected. Adolescence doesn't mean there's no need to be civil.

I think take him for a drive (hard convos best had on drives) and explain there's a minimum standard you will hold him to, and he doesn't have to do more than that. He can say hello properly and make himself scarce.

IME every single teen boy goes through some version of this.

Puberty, hormones, self identity, it hits them hard.

My sweet lovely brother seemed to disappear into his bedroom for 4 years, communicating entirely in grunts, to emerge as a fully functioning, charming , social, successful young almost -adult.

Your OP comes across as very overbearing . Does he have any room to manoeuvre and be himself? Discover his own voice rather than the one you describe (at length) as training him to have?

To quote Giles from Buffy the Vampire Slayer: ‘It’s devastating - he’s turned into a sixteen-year-old boy. Of course, you’ll have to kill him.’

It sounds normal to me, OP. I can remember being incredibly surly and unpleasant on occasion as a teenager. They generally grow out of it.

With respect, I don’t think it’s me who needs to calm down.

I’ve only read your posts OP but have you asked him why he’s not comfortable saying hello? If he has an otherwise positive relationship with you, isn’t this a conversation you could have quite openly?

This! And all the posters saying similar.

OP, I have been a teacher for many years and have also taught a hobby out of school for a long time. Children stay in the hobby, often for years, so I see many of them from quite young through to adults.

I cannot tell you the number of boys I've taught just like yours. Charming, chatty, utterly delightful primary school children. Then they hit around 12 and that's it. They don't talk. They don't look at you. They shrug or grunt answers, if you're lucky.

"How was your day?" "Ok"
"Did you have a nice holiday?" "yeah"
"How's school?" "Ugh"

Then somewhen, usually when they are about 15 or 16, they will come back and say "hi miss, how was your holiday?" And I never cease to be utterly astounded by it even though I know the day will come!

Hang in there. It's normal. You will have your lovely boy back, just keep the lines of communication open and the interactions friendly, loving and non pressured on your side.

I think some of the responses here are a bit tough on OP, frankly - that he’s rebelling against some kind of “politeness dictatorship”. Most people I come across aren’t very polite - it is something that has to be modelled, but also guided/taught.

Such a massive change in behaviour might indicate he’s struggling with his mental health? Has his behaviour only changed around other adults or has it changed when he’s home with family or around friends as well?

If it’s only changed around other adults I would try taking a curiosity approach instead of telling him what he should do differently next time. Based on what you’ve said he probably already knows what behaviours what would be considered polite in the circumstances. I would reflect and ask questions: “Hey are you okay? You seemed upset when X said hello to you.”…see what he says?

You seem to be obsessing in eye contact. The rest is teenage boy behaviour

This reminds me so much of me when I was a teen. I was aware of how I was behaving, but couldn’t change it.

i felt so awkward, both physically, mentally and socially. With everyone - family, friends, teachers etc. bloody hormones.

my parents just used to roll their eyes. Not that I noticed as I couldn’t make eye contact. The only adult I was ok with was my aunt as we were v v similar. She’d also had 4 daughters who were all older than me.

ds2 was a lovely child, great teen, but then bloody awful at uni - rude and patronising. Thankfully that changed.

Your son sounds very happy and comfortable to express himself at home and with his friends which at this stage is really all that matters for him. Your friends may have bought him things and treated him well but they decided to do that and therefore he doesn’t owe them anything. I get it’s mortifying, I have the same with my son and my dad and my dad’s expectations of how he should behave, however it sounds like the adults around you have literally never laid eyes on a teenager before and are being a bit unfair. A quick eye roll and a light hearted “teenagers” is all the explanation you need. It’ll feel worse if you are super sociable but he is loved and feels that clearly so neither of you owe anything else to anyone.

Your first post actually made me feel a bit anxious and angry, OP, since you seemed to be putting so much pressure on a teenage boy to conform to social niceties that are very hard for a lot of teens. I thought he might be unhappy and that you might be making things worse for him by encouraging him to smile, make eye contact, etc.

Your subsequent updates show that you have a good and very happy relationship with him, with loads of spontaneous affection, and that he relates very well with his friendship circle. So I agree with another poster that you are perhaps too invested in the way he reacts to your adult friends. It seems that he does say hello to them, usually, but that he does it in a typically morose and minimal way that is typical of a lot of teenagers.

You've told him that is impolite and honestly I think that having told him once you mustn't keep going back to it. Give him the space to be awkward, socially inept, shy in the typical teen manner. He will come back to social competence later, but it will be harder for him to do that if he is made to feel he must constantly mask his true self and pretend.

EDIT: I've just looked at your thread title again and seen the word 'enraged'. I'm sure that is partly deliberate hyperbole for the purpose of venting, but it still seems striking. My eldest son couldn't look at people easily at that age. Sometimes he would turn his whole body away. It was evidently extremely painful and difficult for him. He was actually becoming very mentally ill, which absolutely doesn't seem to be the case with your son, but I do think that normal teens have a lesser version of his pain and their awkward feelings have to be cherished and supported by accepting parents, even when they lead to rudeness.

I went through the same thing myself. As soon as puberty hit, I didn't smile, acknowledge family/neighbours/parents friends or make eye contact with anyone. I would ignore people who spoke to me because I was too embarrassed. I suddenly became really shy and felt awkward and wanted to hide away. I changed when I got to 16/17, and felt fine enough to behave like a normal person would! I do sometimes reflect on that period and cringe, but there was nothing I could have done to change it! Your son doesn't mean to behave this way. He will get to the other side in a few years.

Oh my.
OP, this is entirely normal teenage behaviour.
Back off your poor boy and chill out before you make yourself ill. He is a human being not a performing dog.
I've worked with son lovely polished young men from Eton and I can tell you that at 13 they shuffle and look at the floor too.
They come back to you when the are older.
It's excruciating being a teen, they are self conscious and trying to find their place in the world.
You seem to have very high standards and a very high need to be judged favourably by your friends. This is your problem, not your boys. Who the fuck really cares if someone's son didn't have eye contact? The only one interested is you, and of course your poor son.