To be late for school once a week?

[Latelateshowz]

(Writing this from DC POV.)

I am in year 13 at school. My school’s late policy is that you can be late once a week without any penalty. If you get two lates you get put on a report and have to turn up early for 2 weeks.

I don’t see the point of getting in on time just to sit around in form time or to go to an assembly. So I choose to make the most of the system that is in place and deliberately go in late once a week.

In case it is relevant, I have the second highest voluntary service hours in the school (this is for things like helping younger students, doing clubs etc) and I am predicted the highest grades. I’ve never had any detentions for behaviour etc.

My form tutor mentioned my punctuality in a recent parents meeting and my parents think I should just be on time. My view is that I am just making the most of the system the school has set up.

YABU: get yourself to school on time
YANBU: fair enough, be late if you want

I would love it if all my 6th formers would actually read their emails. And acknowledging the email would also be useful. It’s infuriating trying to organise meetings with them sometimes - I have one Year 13 who doesn’t even bring the correct book to the lessons, sometimes not even a pen! If I need to get a message to a student, knowing it’s been passed on in person to the student means I know they have received it.

Awful attitude

I read this as coming from a girl! And I can't say why. Its funny isnt it how we've assumed unless I've missed something?

I love you've posted this from your kid's perspective. I kind of get it, at work if we are off sick more than so many times in a year it triggers an HR absence alert, so I like to take the odd day off here and there but stay under the threshold.

The argument with real world and jobs doesn't really fly.

Many jobs don't have an exact start time.
In the real world, the employer is paying me for the time they want me to spent in activities similar to form/assembly.

So we should be teaching our children to be disrespectful unless someone is paying for their time?

What does DC want to do when they leave education?

If it includes College and University.
They don't see punctuality in the same way, if your DC is persistently late, either to lessons or handing in work they will get warnings and then kicked out.
In University its similar but handing in work late usually results in a lesser grade, unless they get one of those lecturers that just gives out extensions.

Although your DC will say that they know this and that they won't do it but it does breed bad habits.

Depending on what they want to do after education depends on how the company will react.

I've never had a job without a start time or no expectations. The point is there are rules and boundaries in the real world, its just applied differently at school. The being late isn't relevant its the fact they choose not to follow a rule that applies to all.

I didn't talk about respect, I've pointed out that the argument of preparation for the "real world" is overused in this kind of threads.

If you want to talk about respect, let's start from different question. Is the school respectful of the student's time?

I understand the point you are making. This is steering in a different direction to the OP, so I won't go deep, but FE provision is dependent on where you are in the country. Further, there is a greater number of 16-18 students studying for level 2 qualification in FE than school, and a greater number who are studying at level 3 are doing vocational or techincal courses rather than A Levels, suggestive of there being more availability of those courses than A level courses. Progression from FE at 18 is more likely to be either work or sustained study in FE than progression to HE. Making a choice about where to study would depend on what you want to study and what you are hoping to go onto. Demographic info here and here

In my previous LA (recently moved due to issues with the educational provision), there is no A level provision at all in colleges. In fact there was no A level provision full stop until recently. There is now one 6th form where you have the choice of A Levels in Art, Graphics, Textiles or Sociology. The LA website lists 4 post-compulsory options for study or training, 2 are actually out of the LA. To talk as if all students face an abundance of choice for their 16-19 education is either naive or disingenuous.

I disagree.

It doesn't in any way suggest the student thinks their time is more important than anyone else's. It suggests they have assessed how best to manage their own time, within the specific constraints of the policy as it was written.

I also worked in universities for much of my career. The increasingly intense and overbearing monitoring of students over the years was difficult to be involved in. It runs counter to the idea of independent study and independent thought and bows to the capitalist ethic of the big business universities have sadly become.

It doesn't surprise me that you refer to a year 13 student as a child.

From the spark the student in the OP has shown I find it unlikely they will be a grunt working for others. They seem to have much more about them than allowing mealy mouthed pencil pushers to decide whether they're good enough for promotion. They already know who they are. I really like that in a person.

I'm pretty sure they've been using the saved form time working towards their future success and happiness, and I'm absolutey rooting for them. Life's as glorious as you allow it to be, and what joy to have discovered that before you're even out of 6th form?! Bravo young person, bravo.

Ha, well, yes! But there's every chance they're not listening to a word you say as you're stood in front of them either, isn't there?

Research shows teenage circadian rhythms alter to make them night owls, so waking up in time for school can leave them lacking sleep which affects memory, amongst other things. Maybe they should be allowed the odd duvet day for their sake and yours!

@Slebswe are going to have to agree to disagree.
I don’t see this as showing ‘spark’. Finding ways to beat the system and find loopholes so you can stay in bed is not an admirable quality.

Choosing to stay in bed rather than attend a meeting where you are expected, is nothing but disrespectful. It is saying you think your time is more important than those running the meeting/form/assembly. Again, not a good quality.

As for calling people ‘mealy mouthed pencil pushers’. You sound a delight 🙄
You can ‘know who you are’, and show spark and personality AND be respectful of peoples time and be punctual.
Spending time trying to beat the system just makes you look like a bit of a dick tbh.

This young person chose to undertake their post 16 education at a school. This means form time and assemblies. If they didn’t want that then they should have gone elsewhere.
When you have a job you are often expected to attend meetings, if you are the sort of person who stays in bed rather than attend when expected then that won’t be viewed favourably. That’s how it works.

Kids a smart arse.
no one likes a smart arse.

It is about respect though. This young person is choosing to stay in bed rather than be at school on time.
When they started at the the school the expectations will have been outlined and the student will have agreed to them.

The only way the school is not being respectful of their time is if they turn up to school and there are no staff to teach them or run form time/assembly.

The comparison to the real world is important. Young people are supposed to be learning about how to behave and function in the workplace and school is a relatively consequence free place to learn these skills. If you repeatedly didn’t turn up to a meeting in the workplace because you were choosing to stay in bed, there would probably be repercussions.

I am honestly a bit surprised by the people saying that this child won't do well in the workplace or that this behaviour is selfish

There is absolutely nothing in the OP that suggests that what the child does has any impact on anyone else.

I did similarly in 6th form and I went to a top university and now earn a very high salary. It really hasn't held me back academically or the workplace

I think actually it's a good sign - many careers reward someone who challenges the status quo, much more than someone who blindly follows every rule no matter how silly.

Like this child, I was and am totally capable of getting places on time when it matters, just not when it doesn't.

Do you not think it’s disrespectful to stay in bed rather than attend a meeting where you are expected to be present?

I’m running a 9am meeting this morning and I would be pissed off of someone chose not to attend just so they could have a lie in. I wouldn’t see it as challenging the status quo. I’d see it as them thinking their time is more valuable than mine.

Not if that meeting is pointless and everyone has been told it doesn't matter if they miss it once in a while.

I also run many meetings - if they aren't useful, I would rather someone told me that. And actually when attendance dropped down at my monthly team meeting, I asked my team why and adjusted the meeting accordingly.

I actually think it's just as disrespectful to keep wasting everyone's time

Where did the OP say they had been told that it doesn't matter if they miss assembly or form time? or that it was pointless?

The young person has ben told that the school policy is that there is a threshold for punishment regarding punctuality. They have interpreted that as them having permission to be late once a week. The fact it's been raised by the school it suggests that's not the spirit of the policy.

I also run many meetings - if they aren't useful, I would rather someone told me that. And actually when attendance dropped down at my monthly team meeting, I asked my team why and adjusted the meeting accordingly.

Exactly, you have a conversation. You don't just stay in bed.

I don't think they are disrespectful, lazy or that staying in bed for some extra sleep is a waste of time as a teenager whose circadian rhythms have been completley disregarded in the planning of the school timetable. After significant research has been presented to document this, if anyone is being disrespectful and downright negligent, it's schools who continue to insist on a start time that has been proved to be detrimental to the health and wellbeing of teenagers.

As an adult I've had some of my best and most successful ideas lying in bed in those enormously fertile moments of peaceful, semi-dreamy enlightenment. Ideas that have gone on to be creative projects that have been commercially and critically successful. I could have been rushing myself up and out to attend an irrelevant meeting instead and would have lost out on all of that. For what? To please someone who likes rules for rules sake and forcing irrelevant meetings on people? It took me much longer to figure out than this excellent young person. They really are destined to go far.

Choosing to stay in bed rather than attend a meeting where you are expected, is nothing but disrespectful. It is saying you think your time is more important than those running the meeting/form/assembly. Again, not a good quality.

You say 'agree to disagree' but then present opinion as fact. This is not fact. I have already stated my opinion, I think this shows enormous intelligence, vision and creative thinking, good time management and self knowledge. Seeing these qualities infront of me I am excited by this young person's potential, not foaming at the mouth and crying 'disrespectful!'. In my many years of teaching and supporting young people I don't think I ever experienced disrespectful behaviour. Curiosity, vision, creativity, new ways of looking and thinking and, of course, plenty of boundary pushing, which is exactly what healthy, developing teens should be doing.

I also met many fabulous educators who harnessed these qualities, encouraged and supported young people to become independent learners and thinkers. But amongst us were also alway a handful of educators who were quick to criticise, moan about and seemingly actively dislike young people. The type who are quick to shout about 'disrespectful behaviour '. I could never fathom why they were in the job. They lacked the creativity, curiosity and vision of the young people they were there to guide and seemed terribly bitter about that. Once a person is in the right place they stop criticising others like this. Some don't achieve it in a lifetime, other know from the start. We can all find that place though, but it's rarely in an 8.30 meeting about something that bears no relevance to our interests.

Postscript

Spending time trying to beat the system just makes you look like a bit of a dick tbh.*

*See: Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King Jr, Emmeline Pankhurst, Christine de Pizan, the women of the Rosemstrasse protest, Oscar Schindler, Muhammed Ali, Rosa Parks, Harvey Milk, Greta Thunberg, Malala Yousafazi...I mean the list goes on and on of these 'dicks' who tried to beat the system, doesn't it?

See: Nelson Mandela, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Martin Luther King Jr, Emmeline Pankhurst, Christine de Pizan, the women of the Rosemstrasse protest, Oscar Schindler, Muhammed Ali, Rosa Parks, Harvey Milk, Greta Thunberg, Malala Yousafazi...I mean the list goes on and on of these 'dicks' who tried to beat the system, doesn't it?

Were they spending their time trying to get out of a school assembly so they could have a lie in? Must have missed that one...

This isn't an example of someone challenging the system to do great things. They want a lie in. They are pushing the boundaries for selfish reasons - don't try to make it into something it isn't.

I also met many fabulous educators who harnessed these qualities, encouraged and supported young people to become independent learners and thinkers. But amongst us were also alway a handful of educators who were quick to criticise, moan about and seemingly actively dislike young people. The type who are quick to shout about 'disrespectful behaviour '. I could never fathom why they were in the job. They lacked the creativity, curiosity and vision of the young people they were there to guide and seemed terribly bitter about that. Once a person is in the right place they stop criticising others like this. Some don't achieve it in a lifetime, other know from the start. We can all find that place though, but it's rarely in an 8.30 meeting about something that bears no relevance to our interests.

I love working with young people. They're amazing. Supporting young people to become creative, successful independent adults who flourish in their chosen careers has been an absolute privilege. I've worked in schools, colleges and universities and I've loved every single job I've had.
I also work very closely with employers across all sectors. Part of my job is to support schools and universities in ensuring their curriculum helps young people to develop the skills needed and wanted by employers.
I can do all this AND still recognise disrespectful behaviour when I see it. Calling that out doesn't make me bitter or mean I dislike young people.

Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.
Get into the habit of being on time always(barring unforeseen circumstances), people will respect you for it.

I’ve got a DC in sixth form - who is ultra well behaved and wouldn’t want to break any rules as it happens.

I couldn’t believe it when she told me they have to be at school for the whole day regardless of what lessons they have! When I was in sixth form, we could come in late or leave early if we didn’t have any lessons - we could do our study periods at home if we wanted!