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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if you commit a male crime, you should do male time, even if you identify as a woman?

1000 replies

TheAvidAmberPeer · 01/10/2025 21:09

I know this is a sensitive topic but I’ve been thinking about how justice systems handle trans women who commit serious crimes, especially violent or sexual offences, and whether it’s fair to house them in women’s prisons. To me, if you were born male and commit a crime typically associated with male offenders, particularly one involving violence against women, it seems like common sense that you should serve time in a male facility. Identity doesn’t erase biology or risk in those cases.

AIBU to think fairness and safety, especially for vulnerable female prisoners, should come before ideology?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
KateShugakIsALegend · 05/10/2025 13:32

Tandora · 05/10/2025 12:01

Put very simply, the issue is this.

You think that by acknowledging that sex is complicated, people are saying that it doesn't exist (therefore, we must "do away with these words"!)

But things can be both complicated and diverse, and also be real and exist at the same time. It's not a case of all or nothing.

Sex is real. Sex matters. Sex is also a complex, multi-dimensional, developmental process, and the outcomes of that process are more diverse than those produced by a theory/ model that presumes that sex is binary, fixed and pre-determined at conception.

No. A penis and testes make you a man.

No matter how much anyone might wish it otherwise, in this or any other dimensions.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 13:32

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 13:20

Yes, exactly. Upton appears extremely histrionic about perceived slights. Another pointer to a personality disorder which would make him unsuitable to work with vulnerable service users.

extremely histrionic

Yes, this is your completely failure to understand the experience of gender dysphoria and the profound impacts that in has on the individual affected.

There's really just no need for your dismissal and contempt; it just exposes the nature of your opinions and character.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 13:34

KateShugakIsALegend · 05/10/2025 13:32

No. A penis and testes make you a man.

No matter how much anyone might wish it otherwise, in this or any other dimensions.

This is a really reductive, basic, understanding of humanity that has no place in either feminism nor science - (nor social policy for that matter!)

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 13:36

Tandora · 05/10/2025 13:32

extremely histrionic

Yes, this is your completely failure to understand the experience of gender dysphoria and the profound impacts that in has on the individual affected.

There's really just no need for your dismissal and contempt; it just exposes the nature of your opinions and character.

I don’t care what you think about my opinions and character, given your own absurd opinions and your own character. HTH.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 13:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 13:36

I don’t care what you think about my opinions and character, given your own absurd opinions and your own character. HTH.

Yes I am very clear how you feel about me and my opinions.

KateShugakIsALegend · 05/10/2025 13:44

Tandora · 05/10/2025 13:34

This is a really reductive, basic, understanding of humanity that has no place in either feminism nor science - (nor social policy for that matter!)

Edited

Or, it is basic science.

I completely understand and accept that these perfectly physically healthy men feel there is something wrong.

This is why we have therapy.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 13:47

KateShugakIsALegend · 05/10/2025 13:44

Or, it is basic science.

I completely understand and accept that these perfectly physically healthy men feel there is something wrong.

This is why we have therapy.

Science is not basic. Science is complex.

Trans women do not 'feel something is wrong'. That's not what being trans is.

Being trans is a type of neuro-developmental / neuro-biological difference.

It (being trans) cannot be resolved through therapy any more than autism can be resolved through therapy, or same-sex attraction can be resolved through therapy.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 13:55

That’s one theory, it doesn’t explain why some men cross dress for sexual gratification.

KateShugakIsALegend · 05/10/2025 14:00

Tandora · 05/10/2025 13:47

Science is not basic. Science is complex.

Trans women do not 'feel something is wrong'. That's not what being trans is.

Being trans is a type of neuro-developmental / neuro-biological difference.

It (being trans) cannot be resolved through therapy any more than autism can be resolved through therapy, or same-sex attraction can be resolved through therapy.

Edited

The key word being neuro.

There is nothing physically wrong.

Namelessnelly · 05/10/2025 14:08

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 13:15

Bit like your fascinating posts about “the trans experience” @Tandora

Oh I enjoy those. The fact someone who admits they are not trans is lecturing women on the trans experience and why the fact some men don’t like being men means women have to give up their sex based rights are hilarious. Men can never be female or women and no males are allowed in female spaces. Even if they’re wearing a pretty dress and calling themselves Harmony-jade Sparklepants.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 14:27

KateShugakIsALegend · 05/10/2025 14:00

The key word being neuro.

There is nothing physically wrong.

This is a curious comment.

Let's review some important points that pertain to this distinction you just drew:

The brain is part of the body.

Cognitive/ neurological processes are underpinned by physical structures within the brain.

Neurological/ neurodevelopmental differences are real and affect overall health.

Not all neurological/ cognitive differences are properly characterised as being mental illnesses, and not all are responsive to change through psychological therapies.

Maintaining a strict and false binary distinction between physical and mental health is now recognised within medicine to be false and can result in poor medical practice.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 14:28

Namelessnelly · 05/10/2025 14:08

Oh I enjoy those. The fact someone who admits they are not trans is lecturing women on the trans experience and why the fact some men don’t like being men means women have to give up their sex based rights are hilarious. Men can never be female or women and no males are allowed in female spaces. Even if they’re wearing a pretty dress and calling themselves Harmony-jade Sparklepants.

Indeed.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 14:29

Namelessnelly · 05/10/2025 14:08

Oh I enjoy those. The fact someone who admits they are not trans is lecturing women on the trans experience and why the fact some men don’t like being men means women have to give up their sex based rights are hilarious. Men can never be female or women and no males are allowed in female spaces. Even if they’re wearing a pretty dress and calling themselves Harmony-jade Sparklepants.

The fact someone who admits they are not trans is lecturing women on the trans experience

Do you think that all doctors who are expert in a particular area of medicine actually have to have that condition themselves to lecture on it?

What about psychologists?

Child development practitioners?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2025 14:31

Oh good grief, Is Tandora still moaning on about how awful it is for women to have the right to privacy from random men in or outside prison cells? Not to mention men being unable to birth babies, no matter how many hours they spend telling us that sex is oh so complicated and the world is wrong in knowing that sex is binary and only women give birth?

Sad times.

TesChique · 05/10/2025 14:33

What a fresh, value adding new take!

Tandora · 05/10/2025 14:33

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2025 14:31

Oh good grief, Is Tandora still moaning on about how awful it is for women to have the right to privacy from random men in or outside prison cells? Not to mention men being unable to birth babies, no matter how many hours they spend telling us that sex is oh so complicated and the world is wrong in knowing that sex is binary and only women give birth?

Sad times.

Thank you for your mature, insightful and informative contribution to the discussion.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 14:34

TesChique · 05/10/2025 14:33

What a fresh, value adding new take!

Which poster was this directed to and was it sarcastic or sincere? 😅

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 14:36

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/10/2025 14:31

Oh good grief, Is Tandora still moaning on about how awful it is for women to have the right to privacy from random men in or outside prison cells? Not to mention men being unable to birth babies, no matter how many hours they spend telling us that sex is oh so complicated and the world is wrong in knowing that sex is binary and only women give birth?

Sad times.

It was the saddest of times.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 14:45

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 13:55

That’s one theory, it doesn’t explain why some men cross dress for sexual gratification.

I think it's time to stop sexualising trans women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 14:48

Ok, so you are saying that no men ever cross dress for sexual gratification? Good to know.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 14:54

From the link

"Cross-dresser" is a more common and acceptable term than "transvestite." Cross-dressing in and of itself is not considered a psychiatric disorder. Cross-dressing occurs in both heterosexual and homosexual men. It occurs less commonly in women, although they have a broader range of clothing considered consistent with gender. Nonbinary people who dress in clothing typically associated with a different birth sex are generally not engaging in "cross-dressing." Some people who engage in cross-dressing do so for a variety of reasons that are not now, and may never have been, associated with sexual arousal (eg, costumes). However, for those cross-dressers who experience clinically significant distress or impairments based on their cross-dressing urges or behaviors, the diagnosis of transvestic disorder may be appropriate.

Males who dress in women’s clothing typically begin such behavior during late childhood. Up to 3% of men have cross-dressed and been sexually stimulated by it at least once, but far fewer report regular cross-dressing (1). Cross-dressing is associated, at least initially, with intense sexual arousal. Sexual arousal that is produced by the clothing itself (not by wearing the clothing) is considered a form of fetishism and may occur with or independent of cross-dressing.

Personality profiles of cross-dressing men are generally similar to age- and race-matched norms. Gender dysphoria is more common in birth sex males with transvestic disorder. Such individuals may report arousal to wearing typically female clothing as teens that diminishes or disappears later in life, accompanied by a desire to live fully in the female gender. Some with transvestic disorder may also experience intermittent gender dysphoria associated with loss, grief, substance use, or depression.

When their partner is cooperative or willing to participate, cross-dressing men may engage in sexual activity in partial or full feminine attire. When their partner is not cooperative, they may feel anxiety, depression, guilt, and shame because of their desire to cross-dress and may experience sexual dysfunction in their relationship. In response to these feelings, these men often purge their wardrobe of female clothing. This purging may be followed by additional cycles of accumulating female clothes, wigs, and makeup, with more feelings of shame and guilt, followed by more purges.

Transvestic Disorder - Psychiatric Disorders - MSD Manual Professional Edition

Transvestic Disorder - Etiology, pathophysiology, symptoms, signs, diagnosis & prognosis from the MSD Manuals - Medical Professional Version.

https://www.msdmanuals.com/professional/psychiatric-disorders/paraphilias-and-paraphilic-disorders/transvestic-disorder#v82333510

Alucard55 · 05/10/2025 14:56

I've got nothing to add so I'll just repeat one of my favorite quotes from a wise woman.

"It's really very simple. If men pretending to be women feel uncomfortable using the men's toilets, they can stop pretending to be women".

Tandora · 05/10/2025 14:59

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/10/2025 14:48

Ok, so you are saying that no men ever cross dress for sexual gratification? Good to know.

No I'm saying that cross dressing for sexual gratification is a separate thing/ not the same thing as being trans and your hyper fixation on this issue during any conversation about what it means to be a trans woman demonstrates a harmful sexualisation trans women that isn't warranted and needs to stop.

Tandora · 05/10/2025 15:01

Alucard55 · 05/10/2025 14:56

I've got nothing to add so I'll just repeat one of my favorite quotes from a wise woman.

"It's really very simple. If men pretending to be women feel uncomfortable using the men's toilets, they can stop pretending to be women".

They can just stop being trans you mean?

How enlightened and helpful.

I wonder why no one thought of just not being trans.

I wonder how many other things I can apply this to? Maybe I'll just tell my nephew to stop being autistic.

Ooo even better I could tell my uncle to stop having Parkinsons...!

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