To think that if you commit a male crime, you should do male time, even if you identify as a woman?

[TheAvidAmberPeer]

I know this is a sensitive topic but I’ve been thinking about how justice systems handle trans women who commit serious crimes, especially violent or sexual offences, and whether it’s fair to house them in women’s prisons. To me, if you were born male and commit a crime typically associated with male offenders, particularly one involving violence against women, it seems like common sense that you should serve time in a male facility. Identity doesn’t erase biology or risk in those cases.

AIBU to think fairness and safety, especially for vulnerable female prisoners, should come before ideology?

and to be a trans woman you need to be male. So you and they know that Upton is in fact male. By says he is trans he is saying he is male.
he can believe himself to be female, but he knows that he is trans and therefore biologically male.

No. A trans woman is a person who was observed/assigned male at birth, but who recognises / understands themself to be female.

Dr Upton knows that she was identified as male at birth. Dr U knows that some of her observable physical characteristics are of the male typology. Nonetheless Dr U knows herself to be female.

No.

he identifies as female. He knows he isn't actually biologically female. If he genuinely thinks that, he should absolutely never practice medicine.

It says "Your images are currently under review. Please check back later."

So I'll have to wait. But it's a screenshot that has already been posted in this thread.

@Namelessnelly it's possible for things to have meaning and also not be universal.
Here's a little bit about language for you from chat GP. I asked the question "do words have universally agreed meanings"?

Words don’t have universally fixed meanings — their meanings depend on context, culture, and usage:

• Core meanings: Many words have widely agreed definitions (e.g. tree or water) that make everyday communication possible.
• Multiple meanings: Words often carry several senses (bank can mean a financial institution or the side of a river).
• Cultural variation: Words may carry different connotations in different places (football in the UK vs. the US).
• Change over time: Meanings shift historically — awful once meant “awe-inspiring,” now usually “bad.”
• Specialised domains: Technical or scientific fields often pin down precise definitions (e.g. force in physics), but even those may not match everyday usage.

So: words don’t have universally accepted meanings, but they usually have shared enough understanding within a community to make communication possible.

Very much looking forward to it since it contains a mildly sarcastic comment about the need to use a few more words to make language inclusive.

Says nothing about rape trauma or victims of rape.

Says nothing abusive or personal.

Says nothing comparable to saying another user "isn't even human", and must be a "male who gets off on making women uncomfortable".

So I'm very much looking forward to putting your words and my words in that screenshot side by side and exposing what's really going on here.

Votes ended but I agree.

He knows he isn't actually biologically female.

This is incorrect.

Dr U understands / recognises herself to be biologically female, despite having been born with some observable physical characteristics of the male typology. That is what it is to be a trans woman:

This is not incompatible with being a doctor. By all accounts DU was an excellent Dr. with no patient complaints.

We don’t need to hear from chat GPT why a male person cannot be a female.

As pp said, that isn’t the case, there are alleged to have been problems in his former position too.

And back to the subject of the thread - biological males have no place in female single sex spaces. The sc ruling confirmed that, and confirmed that's always been the case. A woman is a biological woman.

so biological males should not be in female prisons. Or changing rooms or any other single sex space for females.

This reminds me of the I AM WHO I SAY I AM posters that protesters were carrying at the Portsmouth FiLiA.

The message is very obviously a safeguarding nightmare & a gift to predators.

I’m not suggesting that Dr Upton is a predator, but this is an important principle. He can view himself as female but he has no right to expect other people to believe that against the evidence of their own eyes, ears & instincts.

The 5th bullet is the one pertinent to the debate here:

• "Specialised domains: Technical or scientific fields often pin down precise definitions (e.g. force in physics), but even those may not match everyday usage.

This is how it is with our disagreements about terminology such as "sex", "biological female", "male", etc.

So why did DU play on male hockey teams?

With patients?

You were talking to a victim of rape, to whom you showed zero empathy, you just wanted to make your silly little sarcastic comment, because trans rights activists and supporters aren’t exactly famous for their compassion for the needs and feelings of women and girls.

It is not incorrect. He is biologically male, and identifies as female.

if he thinks anything else, he is a danger to his patients. Which he openly admitted to in court as he would ignore their rights and treat without informed consent. Not fit to be a doctor.

I believe so, yes.

For much of her life before she came out, DU was forced into living within a male sex role.

She played hockey on the male hockey team, while knowing that she was female.

You’ll be able to catch up on it all on Tribunal Tweets’ live coverage.

If you can show me evidence of that I will stand corrected: this is not my understanding . My understanding is that there were some problems with colleagues with DU being trans at her previous work place as well:

What Empress said.

Your statement that

DU knows he isn't actually biologically female.

is incorrect.

Dr U understands / recognises herself to be biologically female, despite having been born with some observable physical characteristics of the male typology. That is what it is to be a trans woman:

There is no evidence DU was a danger to her patients. She safely practiced as a doctor with no complaints of malpractice.

I’m not going trawling through TT for you. I said I thought it was alleged in the tribunal and that’s how I remember it, you can feel free to refute me with the evidence or perhaps someone else will post that.

Oh don't be so silly, Tandora. Dr Upton is not and never ever can be a biological female, because he is male. He can identify as a woman all he likes, whatever that means to him, but he can't alter his fundamental biology.

If he (or any transwoman) committed a crime and went to prison, he would go to a male prison. This is the case now in E&W, regardless of the seriousness of the offence. Most of the TWs on prison in E&W are in sex offender prisons, because they are sex offenders. The few that are not are either in Vulnerable Prisoner wings in normal prisons, or integrated into main location.

Transmen go to female prisons, regardless of how big their muscles are or how long their beards are. Literally no prison governor is going to sign off putting a female person into the male estate (with a very few exceptions, who were nothing at all to do with trans and everything to do with dangerousness).

Exactly.

the irony is this tribunal has opened so many eyes to the ridiculousness of the tra's and allowed people, who have been silenced by the tra's to finally say what they think.