To think that if you commit a male crime, you should do male time, even if you identify as a woman?

[TheAvidAmberPeer]

I know this is a sensitive topic but I’ve been thinking about how justice systems handle trans women who commit serious crimes, especially violent or sexual offences, and whether it’s fair to house them in women’s prisons. To me, if you were born male and commit a crime typically associated with male offenders, particularly one involving violence against women, it seems like common sense that you should serve time in a male facility. Identity doesn’t erase biology or risk in those cases.

AIBU to think fairness and safety, especially for vulnerable female prisoners, should come before ideology?

Nooooo. @Ereshkigalangcleg how will you cope!? @Tandora thinks you’re not a nice person! I hope you’re very very sad about it.

I think the more you post the more you expose yourself as someone who will not engage with posters who have a different opinion from you. You pick and choose what questions you want to answer.

You will not engage with the notion that on one hand we have a group of people who's gender indenties don't match their biological reality and on the other hand we have people who believe everyone should be treated kindly and fairly but not to the extent of removing the rights, safety, privacy and dignity of another group in society.

Women are very clearly saying we do not want biological men however they present or identify, and regardless of what pieces of paper they have in our single sex spaces. From what I've seen you refuse to engage with this and instead say we are transphobic etc. It is impossible to have a proper reasoned logical debate with you because of this.

I have asked questions that are the logical conclusion of what you argue (are trans rights activists fighting for "trans men" to always be housed in the male prison estate) but you never answer with clarity so the debate can progress.

I genuinely feel sorry for people like you who appear to live in a fictional reality that is solely focused on the wants and desires of a few men.

I disagree with you completely. Dr U's position is completely logical/ understandable .

ive answered several questions you've asked me, including impact on trans men of SC ruling, why there has been that impact and my views on prisons.
Of course I pick and choose- doesn't everyone? I'm not obliged to respond to everything any poster says to me- I wouldn't have time for a start.

If Dr Upton doesn't understand that he is male, he is unfit to practice medicine and should be struck off.

If Dr Upton does understand that he is male and would treat a patient who had specifically requested a female doctor anyway, he is unfit to practice medicine and should be struck off.

Those are the only two options.

I cannot see any possible scenario in which Dr Upton is fit to practice medicine.

I cannot see any possible scenario in which Dr Upton is fit to practice medicine.

that's because you are an extremist and you are incapable of seeing other perspectives- even the idea that another perspective could exist is a logical impossibility from the framework of your extremism.

You highlight my point.

Right, so you understand that women need to be able to have the vocabulary to explain who they consent to being touched by

yes which is what the conversation on the other thread was about. You may need to add an extra 7? or so words into your sentence . Probably less .

I am loving the irony of posters making up their own definitions of words, denying reality, mocking rape victims and then accusing other posters of being extremists. To get back to the OP question, males should be housed in male prisons even if they claim to be women, as no male can be a woman, a woman is an adult human female.

That's a completely unreasonable burden to put on a vulnerable woman who has been the victim of sexual violence and now needs intimate medical care.

am loving the irony of posters making up their own definitions of words, denying reality, mocking rape victims and then accusing other posters of being extremists

The first three statements in that sentence being completely false. The fourth accurate.

Either he understands that he is male or he doesn't understand that he is male.

That's a binary thing.

If he doesn't understand that he is male, how can he be competent to practice medicine? What other basic scientific facts does he not understand? This makes him intellectually unfit to practice.

If he does understand that he is male then he knowingly disregards women's right not to consent to him touching them. Women who have specifically asked not to be touched by people like him. This makes him ethically unfit to practice.

What third scenario can you envisage?

I know. And the fact posters cannot see that, even though they claim to be SA victims, makes me so so angry. Everything possible should be done to help SA victims, not put more pressure and stress onto them. I personally find it disgusting thst posters would even think that this is acceptable.

To speak a few extra words? Maybe in the immediate aftermath if she were struggling to speak- in which case she shouldn't even need to request a female doctor - it should be the default. Otherwise, I don't see that no.

I understand that would involve the inclusion of an extra sentence - maybe seven? - more words. No doubt this is a terrible and unspeakable burden for you

Did you forget about the last sentence of your post about needing to say a few extra words.

Most women, when requesting a female doctor, would not even think to specify that they mean actually, really female, not a male doctor who has changed his name to Beth and put some lipstick on. So no, it wouldn't be a question of "seven extra words", it would be a question of seeing "Beth" in front of them and having to find a way of saying, "not that kind of female doctor, an actual female doctor".

Of course that is an unreasonable burden to put on a patient, as you very well know.

Your misogyny disgusts me.

The only appropriate thing for Dr "Beth" Upton to do, upon learning that the patient has requested a female doctor, is to do as any other male doctor would do and ask one of his female colleagues to attend to her.

Claim to be? How dare you. And given everything you pretend to stand for in order to justify you transphobia.

Mumsnet needs a feature to block users.

Most women, when requesting a female doctor, would not even think to specify that they mean [not a trans woman]...

Right. But the problem is that Dr U wouldn't even think that when they said 'female' that excluded her. She thinks of herself as female.

You think she's "a male who's changed his name to Beth and put some lipstick on". That's not how DU sees the situation at all. Nor is it how I see the situation, or how lots of other people see the situation. People have different understandings of things - see how that works?

If he thinks as himself as female, he lacks the basic knowledge necessary to even pass biology GCSE, let alone complete a medical degree.

So no, either he knows full well that he is male, or he has lost mental capacity since qualifying as a doctor and is in no fit state to treat patients.

I stand by the sarcasm.

Nope. She thinks of herself as female because she's trans. Being trans is not incompatible with passing GCSE biology and acquiring a medical degree.

That was a response to a woman who had described both her rape and her subsequent trauma response and why she would be traumatised by a male doctor in detail to you

People have different understandings of things - see how that works?

That's why in society, unfortunately, you have to be able to use your words, you can't just assume that everyone will automatically have all the same understandings of things as you or anticipate all of your needs.

I'm not going to get into this again. Please read this thread - that particular exchange is well covered.

(Also for the avoidance of doubt that user did not describe any of that detail to me it was an entirely separate conversation on an earlier part of the thread that I wasn't even around for and I haven't even read it).

The Right Side of History displaying itself in brilliant sunlight today.

#OperationLetThemSpeak