To think of your child is 5+ and still can’t behave in public, you’re the problem?

[ThatDeepGoose]

I understand developmental delays, this isn’t about that. It’s about basic manners not being taught.

Consequences are great when a child is in a position to make a rational decision of cost/benefit.

When they are reacting emotionally consequences are pointless. The rational parts of their brain don't operate. Nor do adults after a certain point of emotional arousal.

You wouldn't be able to tell from looking at my child that she has quite significant additional needs. That's why they're called "invisible" disabilities.

But I guess that's why she has her sunflower lanyard - to provide low-functioning neurotypicals with the visual supports that they need to help with the impulse control to stop them from being a judgemental arsehole in public. Of course I do recognise that they might find that hard and have a meltdown when they get home, sometimes venting their frustration in a public forum for example. I can't help but wonder though, if their parents had just been a bit firmer, would they still be as incapacitated in that regard?

This. I think this thread is disgusting. My sons are autistic (though you wouldn'tbe able to tell at a glance). They are usually pretty good in public to be fair, and I'm quite strict with them, but when dysregulated they can struggle. I do my best. I'm a schoolteacher and have excellent discipline. I've read loads on child development, autism, behaviour etc. But it isn't always plain sailing. To have to know that there are people like you, judging me and my kids, and blaming me? Despicable.

You are undoubtedly talking about families like mine, because you don't possess some kind of magical internal "special needs radar". You are exactly the kind of person who makes life difficult for families of disabled kids.

Almost every time we leave the house, someone like you is staring at us or making comments. I'm sure they would all say the same as you, that they wouldn't dream of judging a disabled child. And yet they do. Because DS doesn't have "I am autistic, non-verbal, partially deaf and have a learning disability" tattooed on his forehead. Contrary to popular opinion, no it's not always obvious to bystanders. He doesn't look any different to any other kid his age.

That's the thing about ignorant people. They don't know they are ignorant.

🤣 I think I love you. This is amazing

Climbing on furniture in pubs and restaurants. Shouting and screaming. Running around. Showing grandad the new dance they have learned....including stamping and jumping. Grrrrr. This gentle parenting is an excuse for laziness.

I’m not expecting “impeccable” behaviour, just some evidence that the adults are guiding and supporting the child, rather than ignoring or excusing behaviour that affects others

You aren't entitled to "evidence" of anything. You really are completely oblivious to how ignorant you are.

For example, one of the particular challenges my disabled child faces is transitions (I doubt you know what this means in the context of autism, so I suggest a cursory Google). When he is dysregulated and trying to navigate a transition, the quickest and best way to get him through it is to do nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because he cannot process any additional input at that point. Any attempt to reason, to comfort or to distract would inflame the situation. If left alone, he can quite often pull himself through and regulate himself. If not then obviously we would remove him from the environment (for his benefit, not yours). Almost all the judgement we face from strangers is around this exact situation - a complete lack of understanding that parenting looks different for some families.

Instead of pointlessly pontificating about the behaviour of children you don't know and "wider conversations", it seems to me that you would better spend your time improving your knowledge and attitude towards the many people you share a society with who don't conform to your narrow ideas of what a family should look like.

Can I ask what age you are OP i ask this as my parents would have grounded me for behaving badly in public .my children have been raised with manners they say please and thank are respectfully to elders.however they will still have the occasional tantrum in a shop when I say no .I couldn't sit in a pub with my son with adhd its just too much for him if I tried it would be a nightmare he would be constantly getting up spinning on chairs.aother families might not have a choice but to take there kids with them.
Also parents have alot to cope with now alot more than ever before 2 working parents poor mental health money troubles poor health lack of family support .This doesn't make for bad people or parents or kids just a different society.

But this thread doesn't apply to you, if you've read the OPs post. She has explicitly said this thread is NOT about any children with SEN.

There's this odd idea that children are born with an "SEN" or "not SEN" label on their heads.

In reality, many parents won't know that their kids have SEN until they're well past the small children tantruming in public phase. They'll have an inkling that something isn't right and they'll blame their child or their parenting and family life will get tougher and tougher. But especially if their needs aren't acute, often children aren't diagnosed until much later, including secondary school level, or they slip through the net altogether.

I am not saying poor parenting doesn't exist or anything absurd like that, although people should remember that parents hopefully know their children best and may be parenting in the way that they know their child is most likely to respond to, even if it appears odd to outsiders.

But it's worth remembering that what parents and children really need is support and there is less and less of it around. There are many pressures on family life nowadays, many children are growing up in very stressful circumstances, it's a tricky world for them to navigate and an unacceptably large number are experiencing poverty and deprivation. What we're often seeing is children who, for whatever reason, can't cope with the demands being put on them rather than are just being naughty for the fun of it.

I wouldn’t judge tbh. My oldest son is the most gentle person and wouldn’t hurt a fly, my youngest is an absolute monkey and much more difficult to deal with. I’ve not been that different with them, but one child was significantly easier to discipline. On that note, my oldest was a nightmare to potty train it took about 3 years, youngest all it took was a conversation and overnight it was done.

I agree with you.
But the poor / lax parenting is also affecting people with SEN. (People like myself and my daughter)

for instance, we'll be in a quiet cafe and there's kids running riot, shrieking and whaling and the parents just do a pathetic 'oh Oscar quiet please' and it ruins every bodies experience. It over stimulates my daughter and I. Of course, usual noise will happen but children having screaming contests and who can make the most high pitched noise isn't right. I live in a small but busy market town and there is constantly children running in the road because their parents are busy looking on their phones. Sticky hands touching all the little trinkets in the independent shops. There have been a few posts from business owners as a reminder not to let their children touch as they are breaking things or getting ice cream or the likes on clothes.
A waitress recently got burned carrying out coffee to a table in the local Harris + Hoole due to a child running riot in the cafe. Unacceptable.

Things like that are shit parenting. Lack of awareness and a whiff of 'oh kids will be kids.' I, as a SEN mum and neurodivergent myself see the OPs point completely. There is a huge difference between lax parenting and judging / picking on SEN children. Nobody is saying anything about the children. It's the parents in question. SEN or not, the parents have a responsibility to keep their children and other people safe.

Who are these people then? How do you know them?

Really well said.

But she wouldn't be able to tell that my kids are SEN by looking at them. In fact, people are often surprised when I explain about the autism - even people who have met them before. So yeh, it does apply to me actually.

The small children encouraged by their parents to steal from a local cafe was absolutely a parent issue.
The child trapping and hitting a younger child in a secluded corner of soft play - parenting.
The over tired 6 year old overcome with big emotions - not a parenting issue.

Well OP almost everyone on here has kids with special needs, not one has downright naughty kids. Well I've seen people out with their kids that I know very well, in restaurant, kids running round, screaming because they want something different to what the parents have got them and generally spoiling other people's meals. The parents have just sat there eating or on their phones and ignoring the kids, so yes I know what you mean. If they can't behave don't take them to where they spoil things for other people. A meal may be a rare treat for a lot of people, who really don't want to have that behaviour round them.

Well, these exemples sure.

Clearly the adult is not doing the job.

But then again…everyone has a weird day sometimes so except if you keep on seeing the same child doing the same non sense all the time…I wouldn’t judge.

Spot on

The thread could also be useful for people who are not happy about being blamed by strangers for their kids' misbehaviour. We all have to deal with our kids in the way that works best. I had one who would lie down on the floor in front of toy displays of things they wanted. If I stopped, it would turn into a full blown screaming do, if I walked on he just gave up and followed quietly. To others, it could have been seen as me just being a mousy mother !

Rubbish!

What kind of a chaotic world would we live in without societal judgement?

Yes 100% and nobody dare disapprove now which is what I guess kept behaviour in check in the past. There’s no shame anymore. Look at any of the threads about society becoming selfish or entitled. It doesn’t suddenly happen it’s started off young.

In what way? I’m intrigued

OP has said explicitly that this has nothing to do with neurodivergent kids.