Snapped in the parent and child parking

[seize]

Juggling my 3 month old from their baby carrier trying to get them into the car seat, a car pulls in and asks me to close my door, while I’m halfway into getting my baby in their seat.

Out hops a child in school uniform about 10 years old, not help needing any help to get out, my face must have had an expression of surprise. Someone in need of this space being asked to stop what they’re doing to allow someone not in need of the space to use it. The adult said “ignorant” loudly at me. So I snapped back, “these spaces are for people with babies and children that need help getting in and out, they aren’t for older children” she snaps something back at me about not knowing how old their child is (the one that is in school uniform, fairly tall, that needed no help getting out and is now safely stood in a car park without the adult needing to have them in their line of sight) and the bratty child screams “yeah!”.

I’ve had it with these spaces, they aren’t a convenience for people that happen to have a person under the age of 16 with them. They’re for people who genuinely need the help getting them in and out and need the extra space.

🤦🏻‍♀️ I can hold my child's hand, sure. I can push a trolley full of shopping with one hand, sure. It's a relatively low risk when I'm getting to the very accessible p&c parking. There's still risk, but there's often a big pavemented walk way to get there. Fortunately I haven't come across anyone's elderly mother dithering about whilst parking and making things difficult to get there, but we did almost get run over as we were about to cross at a zebra by someone doing around 20mph once. Carparks are full of oblivious drivers.

So what happens when I'm crossing a large busy carpark with no p&c parking that's full of said oblivious drivers? There is increased risk. Add another child into the picture. Am I holding both their hands tightly, or am I holding the trolley? When the cars are reversing out of spaces, or speeding around, or otherwise being shit drivers, and there's no actual pavement, ... Is it safe? You are suggesting that it's safe for children to essentially walk in a busy road, as long as they're holding mummies hand. The point is that no amount of 'parenting courses' can stop the inherent risk of children in busy carparks.

You sound like you're past the age of actually having children, but I'm sure you'd drag your imaginary youngsters across a busy Tesco carpark on a Saturday to prove a point, though. Luckily parents of children under 12 don't have to, because most decision makers are smart enough to understand that keeping children as safe as possible is a good idea, and have provided customers with an appropriate way to do that.

You sound very anxious. Carparks can be dangerous of course, same as most places there are a lot of people or moving vehicles.

You are suggesting that it's safe for children to essentially walk in a busy road, as long as they're holding mummies hand

That doesn't sound safe for anyone! The carpark you have described sounds very over the top - anyone could be hit by a careering driver at any time it appears - probably best everyone avoids it. But I don't know why you are trying so hard to make out that if they're holding your hand and - here's the crucial part - you're paying attention children are at hugely increased risk just because they're children. They might be impulsive, but you shouldn't be and you should be in charge.

If you let your kids run free in the carpark then yes there's an increased risk.
If you don't make them hold your hand or hold the trolley, then yes there's an increased risk.
If you don't have good boundaries or don't have an expectation that they'll do what they're told, then yes there's an increased risk.

But that's on you, those are your choices.

If you feel that you can't keep your children safe in a carpark then it's best you don't go, or ask someone else to go with you.

What on earth makes you think I don't have small children?

I am anxious crossing a busy carpark with my 4 year old when there isn't any p&c spaces available, yeah. There is literally nowhere else where there are 'lots of moving vehicles' that you would be expected to walk around without pavement or designated crossings. If you can name one, maybe I'll concede. Go on, give it a stab!

I can't 'make' my child do anything. I can ask, instruct and remind of consequences if my requests aren't met. But if my child decided to let go of the trolley because he'd seen something shiny on the floor, or whatever else random impulsive thing goes through his head, and at that point Old Doris had not been paying attention and reversed out into him, then that is not because I need a parenting class, it's because carparks are inherently dangerous and children are inherently vulnerable and cannot keep themselves safe.

I suppose you didn't see the recent video of the elderly man hitting that woman in the carpark, because the vase of flowers on his passenger seat fell over and distracted him? She almost got crushed to death because she had to walk out into harms way.

Disagree all you like, p&c spaces aren't going anywhere and I'll be using them for as long as long as I see fit. Feel free to risk it with your kids, but don't act like I'm the daft one for not doing it with mine.

Also, you are incredibly condescending. It's a really ugly look. Just thought you should know.

Elderly drivers are not the greatest risk, it’s well established that young drivers are. Anyone young or old can get distracted. You could have made the point without the ageism.

It makes no sense to say that older drivers who might benefit from a wider space near the door stay at home because that to you presents some unacceptable risk, while at the same time saying that you can’t manage childen & shopping which is a much greater risk. If you think a carpark is that much of a risk to your children by your own standard you should shop online.

That's not true, actually. In terms of insurance, as people get older they become more high risk. They tend to get into more low speed low value collisions. Insurance starts to go up as people get older.

I literally never at any point said elderly people who would benefit from a blue badge type parking space shouldn't have one. You're just making stuff up now to make out like I hate the elderly or something. I don't, I just know they are riskier drivers than people aged between 30-50. That's not a hot take, btw. It's common sense and the truth.

Your mum has a blue badge, and should absolutely use it. I do think if she isn't competent at parking then she needs to redo some driving lessons, at the very least.

I do avoid places that don't have p&c parking.

Young people cause the most accidents. That is a matter of fact. You could have picked the example of a boy racer or a distracted parent but you didn’t.

Some of the stuff you have said about older people is completely unacceptable. When I pointed out that having a fall can be fatal to older people you responded that if they think they are going to be killed they should stay at home.

Finding parking difficult is not the same thing as being an incompetent driver. You can park perfectly fine and still have a pain in your joints.

”Old Dorris has not been paying attention” doesn’t suggest you are overly fond of the elderly. That along with all your previous replies to me and saying to another poster they sound like they are “past the age of having children”.

Young people (17 - 24) aren't often out doing weekly shops during the day, which is when parents would be there with children. They aren't heavy supermarket shoppers. The boy racers are usually out at night, when my child is in bed.

I started using those annoying names like 'Old Doris' or whatever because the name 'Little Jonny' got used to describe a child. Funny how ageism only works in an ascending fashion, isn't it?

I'm sorry but the suggestion that extremely frail people who might die if they fall over should not be taking long strolls around public places is not completely unacceptable. I would not want my own grandad to be doing this if he was very frail. I would encourage him to get a delivery.

My grandad is 96. He's still 'allowed' to drive, and still sometimes does. I love him to bits, he's like a dad to me, and I still think he is an incompetent driver due to his age. We all do. Whether he has a blue badge for his own comfort or not, he shouldn't be driving around a carpark at all. I'm sure a GP would sign him off as 'fit to drive', though. And he thinks he's fine, obviously.

Plenty of boy racers go to shops. Young people eat and drink as much as anyone during the day.

You continued to have a go at “Old Doris” when replying to another poster. “Little Johnny” isnt ageism it’s generally used when parents either think their child can do no wrong, or are being over child centred.

I pointed out that in support of an argument that older people need priority parking more than children up to 12 who you said could be hit and killed, that older people can in fact die from falls. So there is a risk to older people parking further away from a shop. It does not mean they should stay at home.

And your 96 year old grandad is more than 20 years older than my mother. Most people don’t live to be 96. Whether he should be driving is really down to his personal circumstances. Not all older people are the same, any more than any other age group are the same.

I barely see them, I can't remember the last time. As an in-person shopping parent of a young child, IKEA and Aldi aren't really their go-to hotspots. Believe me.

'Have a go' 🤣 I literally just used the words when describing a realistic scenario. I made 'Old Doris' up, I also used 'Old Sylvia'. Perhaps I should have used 'Old Harold', for equality. Perhaps those terms could be used for when their grown up children think their elderly parents can do no wrong, too. Which seems to be the case here.

The vast majority of over 80s have declining reaction speeds, hearing, and sight. That is reflected in their increasing insurance premiums.

Realistically, supermarkets and other shops are making a lot more money from parents doing family shopping as they are there more often, for longer, spend more and so they will obviously be catered more for. Why would a supermarket think a very frail person who might die from a fall if they have to walk further, who probably spends half as much half as often, deserves priority over their more regular consumers?

It would be nice if they provided some spaces, but not at the expense of others. Which is what you're suggesting. Take the children's space, give them to the elderly... Rather than 'yes children should be kept as safe as possible by not needing to cross dangerous carparks, but the elderly should have provision, too'. Nobody would argue with that.

I’m see them all the time. Maybe you live in an area without many young people. Are you seriously suggesting that younger people don’t go to supermarkets during the day?

I meant that you continue to refer to older people and my mother when you aren’t even addressing me.

I said my mother is able to park. That is not the same as saying she can do no wrong, She can park. She is not the same as your 96 year old grandad. Because not all older people are the same.

You feeling that your 4 year old is a risk of running under a car is a much bigger issue from a safety point of view.

And the one thing we agree on. Supermarkets don’t provide parent & child parking because it’s necessary, they do it because those shoppers spend the most money. Because it’s money above all else. Always.

From what you've written here about your anxiety I think it probably would be best for you to do your shopping online - distracted pensioners could be lurking anywhere. Just be careful when it's delivered that your 4-year-old doesn't suddenly impulsively dart through the open front door and run into traffic, or fall into a disused well. There'll obviously be nothing you can do about that, especially if anything shiny is afoot, so it'll be a tense time.

Me and my 4-year-old? We'll probably carry on using the anarchic hellholes carparks in the supermarket - even if there's not a P&C space left. I think I can just about concentrate long enough to supervise him carefully for a few minutes, ancient as I am. Not everyone wants that level of involvement though, and all kids are different of course, so you do what you need to do for your personal circumstances.

“they aren’t a convenience for people that happen to have a person under the age of 16 with them”

I hate to stir the pot, but they absolutely are a convenience. They’re not a legal requirement like disabled parking spaces. You have no right to the space. Parent and child spaces are put there by the shop as a convenience, nothing more. I could park in one without a child at all and there would be no comeback whatsoever (apart from the glares!)

Getting all ferocious about it is such a waste of energy, just be grateful there was a space for you when you needed it and start caring less about what other people do, you’ll be much happier.

Parent and child spaces are for kids under 12. With a 3 month old you’re probably very tired and irritable but this is not something to be irate about.

You were right to continue as you were, they shouldn't have shouted at you .. equally you didn't need to retaliate … You were both as bad as each other. Why do think this other person wasn’t entitled to be in the space? Hopefully you’ve changed your views now that you know they’re for children up to 12.

DD is 17 now, but when she was younger, I'm sure Tesco rules were for under 5's. I remember having a sticker for my windscreen. Now everything online indicates that these spaces are for under 12's.

So, although I thought YANBU initially, it looks like you probably were BU.

What annoys me, is parents without badges parking in a disabled space. Their need is not greater than mine.

You have continually made a lot of wild assumptions, with an incessant condescending tone, just so you can make yourself feel like a better parent than a stranger on the internet. You sound so intelligent, and not at all sad and pathetic. I'm sure the other posters who have read your replies are all clamouring to get in your inbox and tell you how cool, relaxed and superior you are.

Young people (17 - 24) tend to be at college, at university, or at work during the day... The boyracers don't tend to be doing their shopping at 3:30pm on a Wednesday. Obviously I'm not saying no young people ever go shopping through the day. All the times I've been reversed into, almost squashed on a zebra, or literally driven into in carparks have been by older people, though.

Children are more vulnerable in comparison to the frail elderly, yes. That doesn't mean I'm saying the frail elderly are not vulnerable.

I hope you mum gets to keep her blue badge. I apologise that I used her lack of confidence with parking as a way to strengthen my argument that carparks aren't safe to another poster. It's just not an uncommon situation where older people have lost their driving skills and shouldn't be on the road anymore. Unfortunately there isn't anything in place to reassess them and have their licence removed, if necessary, for the safety of others. So I'm very aware that when crossing busy carparks (with no pavements or crossings) me and my child might encounter someone who really shouldn't be on the road.

As I said before, carparks are not like any other situation involving vehicles; they are just inherently more risky. Adults are aware of that, but children aren't. Children are by nature impulsive, most adults aren't. I do think that makes them more at risk, and so therefore it makes sense their safety is catered for.

But it would be good if there were spaces allocated for the elderly without blue badges, like on buses.

I haven't made any assumptions. You said you were anxious about being in a car park. You said that you don't trust either your child's behaviour or your ability to manage it to keep him safe. You have described the carpark at your local supermarket as full of distracted elderly drivers blindly backing out of spaces and speeding across zebra crossings. That's all from you.

Again, from what you've written, I think the best thing for you to do would be to avoid it and shop online. And worry less about how other people are parenting and what's going on with their inbox - you just need to focus on your own situation.

The safety of the kids isn't the reason for the spaces. People want them because of the size of their cars. Can we please not pretend otherwise.

But with that in mind, the P&C spaces could be anywhere in the car park and don't need to be near the entrance.

In any event, a child can run off from any space, they won't magically stay still because you've parked near the entrance.

The issue shouldn't actually be "I need to park close to the entrance because my child will run off) it should be for all drivers to go at 5mph because they are in a car park, not on a motorway. But we know that won't happen.

I wasn’t questioning the veracity of it, l’m a disabled driver myself and l know how hard it is to get a BB. I was merely adding to my reply to a poster upthread pointing out that unless/until the law is changed to bring P&C spaces in line with BBs spaces there is no point arguing the toss. If a parent with child parked in a BB space without a badge, you could legitimately ask a traffic warden or car park attendant to move them and legally they would have to oblige. The same is not true in reverse.

I feel sorry for your partner if this is how easily you turn to manipulation and gaslighting.

'Good grief' indeed 🤣

I see what you did there. 😉 Well played. 😁🧙🏻‍♀️