AIBU to feel angrey after Holland Park School open morning?

[GentleMintCat]

I’m viewing a few secondary schools at the moment. We’ve seen some private ones (sadly not an option unless DD gets a huge bursary). Yesterday I went to see Holland Park School — which has always felt like our safest option since we live very close — but came out devastated and rather angry.

Yes, the grounds are gorgeous, with a shiny, modern building, a new sports pitch, and spacious classrooms with lovely views over Holland Park. But the atmosphere? Absolutely grim. The classrooms were deadly quiet — no energy, no spark, no laughter, no questions, no enthusiasm.

Alright, I guess that’s fine in maths or English, but even in drama, music, and art… in art, the children were like in a traditional exam setting, sitting at their desks, copying a dull sketch from the screen in complete silence, while the teacher walked around peering over their shoulders. I couldn’t sense a shred of creativity, joy, or curiosity in that room. It felt almost like a military camp. Even the bell sounded like a fire alarm — the sort you see in American prisons in films.

When I asked students what they loved about the school, they couldn’t answer. I rephrased and asked what was one thing they were excited about coming to school, but they seemed unsure. What they were actually excited to talk about was “refocus rooms,” detention room, and punishments. They really wanted us to see the detention room which was on the ground floor, a dark space with heavy black curtains where you’re sent for forgetting your planner, doodling in a workbook, wearing the wrong colour socks, missing a part of your uniform, or being two minutes late. This lovely, polite girl said she had already been there twice this year - once for doodling because she got carried away 'in a boring lesson' and another for forgetting her planner, which they have to carry with them at all times.

I went in Soviet school and honestly, even they didn’t have detention rooms. If anyone misbehaved, they would do extra fitness classes or some do some gardening and cleaning for school grounds, and parents were called in. I’m not saying that was better by any means, but honestly — how the hell have we normalised this? What are we thinking as a society, treating children like inmates inside schools, and then acting shocked when they go wild on the streets after being in this prison-like environment all day long?

All I want is a normal, happy school for my child. Is that too much to ask? And do I have to pay £30k a year to avoid this 'military silence + constant detentions'? Is that what we call a good education in the 21st century? I couldn’t stop thinking: what kind of young people will come out of this school environment — happy, curious, caring, loving, creative, enthusiastic and empathetic?

According to the local authority website, it has been over-suscribed for at least the last 5 years.

Total available places, between 232 and 248 (ish, years vary)
On Time Applications
Total Applications 2025
974

in 2023: total applications: 1438
in 2022: 1726

Number of applications has gone down a lot, but it's still massively oversuscribed

@SpanThatWorld

Five headteachers in three years.

Oof. Point taken.

Yes, you’re right! The stats do show that.

But I genuinely care less about that than children being brought up in an environment where they’re treated with decency, kindness and warmth even, given some freedom and responsibility and left to discover the consequences of, say, missing homework for themselves. And then learning self-discipline through that and picking up some decision-making skills and judgement along the way.

I’m genuinely worried about what’s happening in England. The kids here aren’t allowed
to do any of the things that are part and parcel of growing up, like experimenting with hair, make up and clothes, developing their own sense of style, expressing their personality, challenging adults/authority figures, learning to think for themselves and to self-regulate.

The system is creating a generation of helpless zombies.

The refrain I keep hearing from teachers is that if you “manage the small stuff, the big
stuff will take care of itself”. Which in practice means that the kids are zealously punished for things like nail varnish, the wrong kind of shoe and a missing planner, while bullying, both physical and emotional, misogyny and racism are rampant, because the teachers are a) sub-par, b) very busy handing out detentions and c) only focused on “the small stuff”.

quite

Between reading your book in peace, or doing French,Maths or any other subject they dislike, the choice is a quick one

@Guytheskiinstructor

Certainly, we generally don't police things like make-up and so on here - though certain jewellery and hairstyles aren't allowed in PE for health and safety reasons.

All secondary schools in my area have a uniform, but the last time that I did supply (well over a year ago) the school had stopped insisting on it during lockdown. Secondary uniforms across the LA are the same - black skirts or trousers with a white shirt plus the school tie. Subsidised black blazer with braid and school badge for senior school (usually provided if the cost is a problem).

There are problems with major disciplinary problems (violence) not being dealt with properly, however.

why should there be any tolerance for lateness etc..?

The bell rings, they go to class, they bring the correct homework and supplies, how hard is it?

It's standard in many schools, it's just basic respect for the teacher and the rest of the class. Never stops the kids to be cheeky and playful.

If a child is seen to be clearly enjoying helping in the library or doing some gardening or whatever then they should be encouraged to volunteer or join a club. Giving them the opportunity to be doing something they actually enjoy and feel pride in may change their attitude to school and not misbehave.
Doing it as a punishment is about losing your free time.
Why do so many misbehave? Because they're bored, frustrated or struggling in the lesson.
Sending them to isolation to stare at a wall or do some lines is time means they are having the punishment of losing free time but wouldn't it be better to try and encourage positive activities to make them see actual alternatives to just causing disruption in school?

In real life, and in work life, mistakes happen sometimes and people are imperfect.
Not every mistake and slip up needs punishment.

Ultimately, you can't change the curriculum (well, maybe we should, but basics still need to be learnt)

Yes, it might be boring to learn your timetables, French grammar and historical events, but not everything is "fun". It's part of learning, that's life.

By secondary they should resign themselves that sometimes lessons are not "fun" and a jolly. You can't turn absolutely everything into a party.

Some kids love arts and music, other hate it with a passion. Some kids hate Maths, others enjoy the challenge. We need discipline so everyone has a chance to learn.

The "over subscribed" thing could be because in London you get 6 choices.
If you only had 3 choices I wonder what the numbers would be.

Don’t even think about Scotland. The schools here are failing, and failing badly. The SNP have run what was a great system into the ground, sadly. Maybe things will start to improve after the elections in May, though. I’m not holding my breath, like.

@FancyQuoter that's very true.
I don't know the solution.
I just see so many teenagers being bored and frustrated with the school system - which leads to the poor behaviour 🙁
Something needs to change.

There are a lot of schools in the vicinity though - and although you won't realistically get Cardinal Vaughan or Sacred Heart or whatever if you're not coming up from a Catholic primary, there are plenty other options. What about KAA if you're local to Holland Park?

in real life, it's not acceptable to turn up late at meetings, you lose clients and contracts if you can't be bothered to show on time with them, and you lose a lot of point - if any chance of getting the job - if you are late at an interview.

Being late to class is not a "mistake", it's kids not bothering to stop chatting or messing around at break or in the corridors. It's not something that should be encouraged, why should it?

We stayed in a(n) hotel. As it was in college term perhaps the student hostels were full of their students? I can’t remember where it was, but it was an easy bus ride from the training college and had a supermarket next door. We were each given an allowance for food (which was about the same amount we’d paid for the whole trip) and sometimes shopped in the supermarket.

I do remember things like getting on very crowded buses, and people always squashing up and helping us onto the bus.

We did visit some teacher training student accommodation at least once, to spend the evening together. I remember this particularly well because there were dividing walls between the cubicles in the women’s toilets, which were opposite a row of sinks, but there were no doors on the cubicles. There were doors on the toilets in the training college, though.

What was the official point of your visit to Leningrad?

Edit: I have a friend who worked as a nanny for an English diplomatic family in Moscow in her ‘year abroad’ as she was studying Russian at university. It might well have been at about the same time as you were there.

Doesn't "total applications" mean everyone who named the school at all on their application though? I don't think they will all be parents who actually want their child to go there. When I applied for secondaries for my DC I put our catchment school as third preference, just in case, but in reality I knew it was massively unlikely that we wouldn't get our first preference and almost inconceivable that we wouldn't get first or second. But my DC would be counted amongst the applicants for a place at our third preference I think.
As far as I know everyone in England gets to nominate at least 3 schools and it's as many as 6 in some places, which would massively increase the total applications. It would be far more useful to know how many children applied but were ultimately placed at a school they ranked as a lower preference as surely that is the genuine measure of over subscription? I'm not sure if that data is published though.

I’ve never heard of such boring sounding schools…that art class 😳It all sounds so depressing and grim
Im amazed more aren’t shocked on here.

It really is as bad as OP says. I had very similar vibes when I looked at it a few months ago, and I know people who have taken their children out because they were bored rigid and not achieving. I felt really quite sorry for the pupils, particularly any with a spark of creativity, it just gets crushed out of them.

All my kids are state educated, never heard of or seen detention rooms

HP has a terrible reputation at the moment. I know quite a few people whose kids are there and they are all so upset about how it’s been run and there were protests before from parents before it got turned over to a academy.

I’m January I met some mums for a drink (that turned into a rant) and apparently there is a business manager (or something like that) who has no education experience but seems to make most of the calls about classes etc.

Id follow @Shookethh advise about KAA. I believe they have a good reputation so worth a visit!

In Isolation rooms children are supposedly given worksheets to do. No-one actually explains to them how to do them, of course, so if they don't understand they are left looking blankly at these incomprehensible questions for hours on end. And yet governments claim that children are entitled to full time education.

I went to HPS in the 80s, before it was knocked down and rebuilt. When my eldest was transferring to secondary in 2019 I went and did the tour, mostly out of curiosity - and I hated it. The head was still Colin Hall at that time, the foyer area was decorated with baskets of lavender and Jo Malone candles, and Hall put up a slide during his talk showing his ‘linen cupboard’ - bundles of ironed sheets tied up with twine with hand-written labels. His comment was along the lines of - this is how I organise my linen cupboard, so you can imagine how I run my school… it was truly insane.

Yes, the building is physically shiny and there’s a pool - but it felt like a kind of luxe prison and utterly sterile. I asked the deputy head about their SEN dept; they didn’t even have a senco and he seemed completely unbothered, could tell me nothing about how kids with additional needs were supported. HPS in my day was anarchic and often chaotic but with some utterly brilliant English teaching, a messy and creative art dept, and it really did embody what they were trying to do with ‘comprehensive’ education. It has gone way too far in the other direction now, and even though Hall is long gone, friends with kids there and who work there tell me the culture he established is little changed.

But it’s not just HPS - I think most secondary schools are failing children these days. I understand why they feel the need to deploy punitive discipline, but punishments for every little slight undermines the effect of these punishments and contributes to the massive upsurge in anxiety among young people. It’s very depressing.

But eleven year olds are not at work!

My neighbour’s child, a lovely happy girl at primary school (and not remotely disruptive), found her start at a strict girls’ comprehensive so terrifying because of the draconian punishments and unsupportive atmosphere that she has been deeply unhappy. She found adjusting to secondary so awful that she went through a period of nightmares, tears and school phobia. And her mum is a teacher!

These behavioural systems might be good for kids who are disaffected or who need keeping in line; but for lots of children they aren’t good. My DD would have fared dreadfully in a school with policies like that, because despite being very able and usually very compliant she would have absolutely rebelled against that one-size-fits-all borstal-style system.

to be honest, I haven't digged that deep 😁, I was just curious what oversubscribed meant in this case, but yes, the numbers published will also give a breakdown of "first preference", "second preference' and so on.

It depends where you live, I would never put a "preference" even a third preference, for a school I want to avoid. If you get it, you can't query it, because you were given one of your "choices".

I know parents who didn't put 3 choices, just 2 - but some counties don't let you have a blank.

Some children have massive school-based anxiety combined with learning difficulties, and really struggle with just getting into class. If, when they finally make it in, they are immediately punished, what effect do you imagine that has one their anxiety?

Children with dyslexia and/or executive functioning problems may really struggle to organise their belongings. Others don't bring the right supplies because their parents can't afford them, or can't be bothered. Should they be punished for their disabilities or for having impecunious or uncaring parents?