AIBU to feel angrey after Holland Park School open morning?

[GentleMintCat]

I’m viewing a few secondary schools at the moment. We’ve seen some private ones (sadly not an option unless DD gets a huge bursary). Yesterday I went to see Holland Park School — which has always felt like our safest option since we live very close — but came out devastated and rather angry.

Yes, the grounds are gorgeous, with a shiny, modern building, a new sports pitch, and spacious classrooms with lovely views over Holland Park. But the atmosphere? Absolutely grim. The classrooms were deadly quiet — no energy, no spark, no laughter, no questions, no enthusiasm.

Alright, I guess that’s fine in maths or English, but even in drama, music, and art… in art, the children were like in a traditional exam setting, sitting at their desks, copying a dull sketch from the screen in complete silence, while the teacher walked around peering over their shoulders. I couldn’t sense a shred of creativity, joy, or curiosity in that room. It felt almost like a military camp. Even the bell sounded like a fire alarm — the sort you see in American prisons in films.

When I asked students what they loved about the school, they couldn’t answer. I rephrased and asked what was one thing they were excited about coming to school, but they seemed unsure. What they were actually excited to talk about was “refocus rooms,” detention room, and punishments. They really wanted us to see the detention room which was on the ground floor, a dark space with heavy black curtains where you’re sent for forgetting your planner, doodling in a workbook, wearing the wrong colour socks, missing a part of your uniform, or being two minutes late. This lovely, polite girl said she had already been there twice this year - once for doodling because she got carried away 'in a boring lesson' and another for forgetting her planner, which they have to carry with them at all times.

I went in Soviet school and honestly, even they didn’t have detention rooms. If anyone misbehaved, they would do extra fitness classes or some do some gardening and cleaning for school grounds, and parents were called in. I’m not saying that was better by any means, but honestly — how the hell have we normalised this? What are we thinking as a society, treating children like inmates inside schools, and then acting shocked when they go wild on the streets after being in this prison-like environment all day long?

All I want is a normal, happy school for my child. Is that too much to ask? And do I have to pay £30k a year to avoid this 'military silence + constant detentions'? Is that what we call a good education in the 21st century? I couldn’t stop thinking: what kind of young people will come out of this school environment — happy, curious, caring, loving, creative, enthusiastic and empathetic?

If you don’t fill up all your choices, in some LEAs you can be allocated somewhere way out of the area. I’m not in London so don’t know how it works there; but in my LEA we had to use all our choices even if we weren’t that keen on our local schools, or we could have ended up being given a place we wanted even less!

well ok?

What do you want me to say.

I am not sure why you think kids chatting or messing around in the corridors instead of going in class when the bell has rang should be encouraged, or what it has to do with being supportive or how is it "draconian".

I don't know any of the kids to be personally offended by it 😂

Maybe some schools only allocate 30seconds and force them to sprint like crazy, the schools i know give them enough time to pop to the loo, have a chat with their mates and make their way across the building. Total non issue.

What really puzzles me about isolation rooms is how on earth anyone contends they are consistent with the current massive emphasis on attendance. In a recent case report, one child had spent more than half the school year either suspended or in isolation rooms. Unsurprisingly, when she was in class she had missed so much she hadn't a clue what was going on, was constantly humiliated as she couldn't answer questions etc, and unsurprisingly played up all the more. How on earth could it not occur to a school in that situation that just maybe it might be worth trying something else?

I wasn’t taking about being late for class, but about the draconian behaviour systems that punish kids for things like minor uniform infractions, ordinary social interactions, and other things that certainly wouldn’t be “punished” in a workplace.

Some of these behavioural systems are so rigid that they are doing the opposite of teaching children to mature and take responsibility for themselves. They are over-structured to the point of being soul-crushing and so joyless that there’s no enjoyment left for kids to learn as opposed to sit there while lecturing is done at them. They won’t be sitting in rows reading out textbook material in unison at work, nor being told everything to do by their boss. They’ll need to be self-starters, not functionaries!

I was at school when table-based activity learning was all the rage and a bit of structure and quiet and desks facing the front would have been nice. But on touring current state secondaries recently I was horrified — it was like Gradgrind’s return. Michael Gove and the Tories were of course very keen on this stuff, but it’s very far from actual education, just a swing of the pendulum in the opposite direction. (I teach myself, too, though in a different bit of the education system.)

The school is doing something wrong. More and more schools are doing it and it’s harmful. Children should not be being forced to remain silent all day, have little to no breaks, and be punished overly harshly for very minor things with no discretion or flexibility. It’s authoritarian and oppressive and doesn’t encourage the development of many skills that children should be gaining from school. It shouldn’t just be about exam results. The OP is quite rightly horrified that this is being normalised, and should be complaining and protesting about it. Nothing changes if people say nothing and do nothing.

These schools are far too reminiscent of the “troubled teen industry” in the US which has caused untold harm and trauma to teens. These ultra strict schools seem to be based on the same flawed ideologies which are not supported by empirical research.

i find it very surprising that people support these schools. If I said I was bringing up my children at home with similar strict, inflexible rules, expecting my children to remain silent for large portions of the day and to work without breaks, telling children where they could and couldn’t look. And everytime they accidentally broke a rule, I would send them to sit silently on their own for long stretches of time, ban them from looking out the window and made them do lines in a darkened room, I’d probably (quite rightly) be reported to social services.

If I had to work under these conditions, it would break me. Why would you want to break a child?

So you didn't like this school. Maybe another one would meet your expectations.
You don't have to send your child there.
Obviously the parents of the pupils attending the school must be reasonably pleased with it.
Have you checked out the ofstead report?

The last report was Inadequate - that’s why it was taken over by the MAT. The school has been having serious problems for some time.

Well if you don't qualify for any of the schools you've listed, the LEA's only obligation is to offer you a place in the nearest school which has places left after everyone has been allocated. So unless you're able to go private or homeschool it's generally best to fully complete the application. If you're going to get a school you don't like it's probably better that it's one that's fairly close to home than a school that absolutely nobody wants on the other side of the borough. And you can still appeal for higher preference schools if you're allocated one lower on your list anyway. So you have nothing to gain from leaving slots blank.
But that wasn't really my point. Just that the headline figures of total applications vs places offered don't necessarily mean that a school is heavily oversubscribed. In fact according to the data on its .gov.uk entry this school is currently about 100 pupils under capacity.

Agree with this. I am in the NW and all but one of the local high schools are now academies. Three were converter academies so kept pretty much the same. Two are now MATs but only because theyve had local primaries join. One is a MAT of two and one of three. My kids went to the former and it was a calm but lovely school with a really caring atmosphere; pastoral care was amazing. I used to visit the occasional class when I was a governor and certainly no one just sat in silence copying things off boards.

OP - it’s just not the school for you. Keep looking.

hmmmm I’m more concerned about the safeguarding aspect of this story… random visiting parent gets to question students in the classroom??? This is a risky activity that should not have been allowed under KCSIE. For that reason alone, I wouldn’t send my child there,

Students always showed us around schools.
That’s normal isn’t it

Thank you. Very well said! Yes, authoritarian and oppressive environment is harmful in so many ways and it doesn't improve anything in the first place! Destroys confidence, self respect, and doesn't empower! Why does it seem so difficult for many to understand? I'm shocked how people get defensive over these trying to argue that being 2 minutes late for 11 or 12 year olds has to end in isolation. There are other ways to improve behaviour and encourage better discipline. Look at schools in Finland for example, Scandinavian countries. They also have kids with difficult behaviours and what a massive difference in approach.

How nice of them to provide the Local Authority with a means to fill the most undersubscribed and likely judged Inadequate school in the area if there aren't enough places in the preferred schools. And they provide a source of income to the private companies that now organise the majority of admissions appeals and clerking services for the oversubscribed schools to pay for.

As are awful, soul-destroying places for the nice kids who want to learn and have a quiet life, and soul destroying for the teachers in daily battles for learning and order. There's often little support for the teachers and I've known too many schools where staff are treated with open contempt by senior management.

A close friend taught in such a school in London in the 90s, fairly notorious I believe and exactly as described above. He had a lot of life experience (Royal Navy, Falklands) and ended up being ill, including an ulcer. Mixed ability classes and he said there were very bright kids who were just able to power through but those who needed a bit more input and could do well in a calm environment really struggled, as did the poor Somali refugee children without a word of English who were just thrown into his history class and expected to get on with it.

Where in KCSIE does it say that prospective parents attending open mornings should not be allowed to talk to current pupils??

Completely normal.

@Sc00byDont when was the last time you did a secondary school tour?
I visited probably a dozen schools. The main tour guides were ALL Year 8 or 9 students who were expected to answer questions.
(obviously the schools pick the best students for this task)

And if they have a dysfunctional home life, some of those things can be quite hard.

You are able to apply to secondary schools in other boroughs, so Hammersmith and Fulham, also Westminster and Camden schools would be accessible to you. While the Catholic schools would expect your to be Catholic, the CofE schools don't expect you to be CofE and for some you wouldn't even need to be nominally Christian.

@GentleMintCat - Finland was panicking about their PISA scores tanking quite recently. UK scores went up quite substantially with these pushy Tory education reforms. Flip side is draconian discipline in “some” schools. You see if the teachers need to get through an extremely content heavy syllabus right from the start, then what exactly are the options? You either have a selective education system which is considered retro here or you have comprehensives for all with a powering on method in some cases.
My youngest joined a top performing grammar school recently. There is no draconian discipline there. They do not need to do that to teach the content.
There are loads of good comprehensives in London with language and music aptitude tests and some partially selective. You just need to inform yourself and look hard enough. You do not need to send your child to a school that you do not like! I would never send my child to a school that I do not feel comfortable with either.
By Sixth Form most schools are selective and there is a lot more freedom too. So in reality you are just looking for the right 11-16 school for your child. Good luck with your search. At least you are in London where you will get some choice.

Too many academies are effectively unregulated and run by people with no background in education, but who think they know what the solution to probems are (usually very simplistic, often work with children who are not likely to be trouble makers anyway. They squeeze the joy out of education and learning.

Yes, schools need to maintain discipline, but this image of uncontrolled children running riot is not a realistic one - retired teacher here, taught in a lot on inner-city schools with troubled children.

Find a school that still maintains the joy of education for your children and one that doesn't borrow from a psychological torture manual to maintain discipline.

That was years and years ago, and in a 12 form entry school, of course they had to mix with the hoi poloi. It was a completely different school, in a different building with very different ethos. More easy going than most other schools and no uniform at all at one stage.

Did OP say the room was dark?

I thought she had an extreme reaction against the black curtains, presumably not drawn and presumably intended to provide a sun block when necessary.

As I said earlier, my primary school had black curtains and this had no impact whatsoever, except historical interest, that they were wartime blackout curtains.
This, incidentally, has something to say about levels of investment in the classroom environment in the 1960s! 😅

unfortunately, finding a good state secondary in inner London is quite a sport.

The school where John and Sally Bercow were both governors…