AIBU to feel angrey after Holland Park School open morning?

[GentleMintCat]

I’m viewing a few secondary schools at the moment. We’ve seen some private ones (sadly not an option unless DD gets a huge bursary). Yesterday I went to see Holland Park School — which has always felt like our safest option since we live very close — but came out devastated and rather angry.

Yes, the grounds are gorgeous, with a shiny, modern building, a new sports pitch, and spacious classrooms with lovely views over Holland Park. But the atmosphere? Absolutely grim. The classrooms were deadly quiet — no energy, no spark, no laughter, no questions, no enthusiasm.

Alright, I guess that’s fine in maths or English, but even in drama, music, and art… in art, the children were like in a traditional exam setting, sitting at their desks, copying a dull sketch from the screen in complete silence, while the teacher walked around peering over their shoulders. I couldn’t sense a shred of creativity, joy, or curiosity in that room. It felt almost like a military camp. Even the bell sounded like a fire alarm — the sort you see in American prisons in films.

When I asked students what they loved about the school, they couldn’t answer. I rephrased and asked what was one thing they were excited about coming to school, but they seemed unsure. What they were actually excited to talk about was “refocus rooms,” detention room, and punishments. They really wanted us to see the detention room which was on the ground floor, a dark space with heavy black curtains where you’re sent for forgetting your planner, doodling in a workbook, wearing the wrong colour socks, missing a part of your uniform, or being two minutes late. This lovely, polite girl said she had already been there twice this year - once for doodling because she got carried away 'in a boring lesson' and another for forgetting her planner, which they have to carry with them at all times.

I went in Soviet school and honestly, even they didn’t have detention rooms. If anyone misbehaved, they would do extra fitness classes or some do some gardening and cleaning for school grounds, and parents were called in. I’m not saying that was better by any means, but honestly — how the hell have we normalised this? What are we thinking as a society, treating children like inmates inside schools, and then acting shocked when they go wild on the streets after being in this prison-like environment all day long?

All I want is a normal, happy school for my child. Is that too much to ask? And do I have to pay £30k a year to avoid this 'military silence + constant detentions'? Is that what we call a good education in the 21st century? I couldn’t stop thinking: what kind of young people will come out of this school environment — happy, curious, caring, loving, creative, enthusiastic and empathetic?

these parents always got their first choice, so non issue, thankfully!

Do you even have kids at school? That's completely normal, in Primary too, not just secondary

Just put them in a normal school

That is normal for most English secondaries now. Unfortunately 🙁.

But some are more normal than others. And OP has found restrictions on other schools. If she casts her nets further, she could probably find more suitable schools, but may not get in due to distance or religious affiliations.

The problem it that it's the 'little things' such as not bringing equipment to lessons that causes disruptive behaviour. It's not 'just a pen', for example, it's a whole attitude to school and not having to obey the rules. So 'not bringing a pen' results in detention and in having to buy a pen, probably, and this being noted in a diary etc - because it is disruptive behaviour. Can you imagine the problem, the time wasted, in dealing with several DC without a pen? In every classroom? So minor infractions are sanctioned so as to avoid major infractions.
(A good school will have a record of DC with disrupted homelifes who may forget equipment - and a way of dealing with it i.e. keeping their equipment in school for collection at the beginning of each day. Though this could also be disruptive, of course. Difficult.)

Surely good teachers have back up pens for such times where a kid forgets? These kids are not robots. To forget something is human and if can't make mistakes when we are young, when can we?

As you say, we also do not know what sort of life at home they have, some families are dysfunctional and the kid getting to school at all is something! We punish a kid for something small like this teaches them what? The world is unkind, unreasonable and not human. Kids will push back against this kind of punishment if done often enough and it will also make them frustrated.

Schools have definitely changed over the years my youngest has just left school and my eldest is 27 - lots changed in the decade between him attending and my youngest in regards to rules and punishments etc. I’m quite relieved we are finally out of the school system. The transgender stuff was also pushed massively at secondary school to the point half the children were identifying as something other than a person!

Unfortunately behaviour in many secondaries is totally out of control now, so schools have to operate like this so that learning can take place and DC can be safe.

Just have a look at some Ofsted reports for inadequate schools to see the alternative.

This one has “planned fights”, “staff receive injuries from pupils”, “pupils and staff feel unsafe”. Students “leave lessons because they want to” and “feel they have to misbehave to fit in.”

Alternatively, at this one, pupils use “racist and homophobic language”, and “vandalism, including offensive graffiti, poor behaviour and bad language are rife.”

“Some of the most vulnerable pupils have suffered violence or harm by other pupils” and “staff have received injuries from pupils.”

”Pupils do not feel safe because of the very poor behaviour” and have “had enough of being jostled and hurt in corridors and verbally abused.”

I disagree. Not having a pen is not telling you anything about this child’s attitude to learning. It only tells you he hasn’t got his pen right now. Very easily remedied by ‘can someone lend X a pen’ and carry on, letting the child catch up after a few seconds/ a min delay.

When in year 3 my dc had this teacher telling me his ruler lines are not straight, his cutting and gluing not neat and it shows his ‘attitude to learning’. Well, no. He’s learning shows you his attitude to learning - the fact he reads so many books, sits and writes stories with no prompting, attempts every science experiment he comes across in his magazines. And it is a very positive attitude of a very curious child.

Being organised and neat with stationary, etc is a different skill to being a good learner. And teachers who don’t know the difference are not very good at their job.

I went in Soviet school and honestly, even they didn’t have detention rooms.
I don't think Soviet schools would need a detention room as they probably have other methods of dealing with troublesome students ....
I wonder whether OP would be likely to publicly post her dislike of the colour of curtains in a local school if she was still in Russia?
I don't know whether free vacations in Siberia are still a thing, but I feel sure the authorities do have other ways of rewarding such creative efforts!

My parents/grandparents have been through the Soviet education system and I got two take-aways:

(1) the quality of the education they received (bar the dodgy communism history crap) was actually very high;
(2) it was definitely not a nurturing environment 😅.

Thank goodness none of my employers were like that. One day I got stuck in my flat (door wouldn't open, landlord had to send someone out to fix it) and a different employer, before I went on maternity leave I was nearly always late, because I walked there and I really started to struggle, especially with dizzy spells that meant I'd need to stop and rest. Nearly collapsed on a woman coming out of the school I walked past.

Wonder how some of these schools would deal with any students who were pregnant. My old school locked the toilets during lessons and you needed to go to reception to get the key. Thankfully this after I left. I was barely going to school at all when I was in secondary. I think I'd have refused school completely if I'd have been in some of these places.

Yes, I've heard (1) from a Russian I know.

Re (2), I've been researching Russian schools since reading OPs posts and 'militiaristic propoganda' comes up a lot, but no mentions so far of gardening clubs nor respect for pupils! 🤣

@GentleMintCat I agree with you, and punishment goes against research too. And from the sound of it, there are much lower education standards, a lot of focus on progressive content (or lack of content) but not on progressive creativity! I think that the government really needs to take action to improve educational standards and also improve wellbeing throughout England (not sure about other UK countries).

Sorry, edited to delete!

I read your reply before it was edited and WWI is such an interesting topic! It's the war that was started by completely irresponsible moronic leaders and changed the world completely. Things could have gone so differently. For one, had Germany won it there would have been no WWII.

Good luck running any state school without punishments.

All the top schools have clear and strict rules that are enforced. Schools which don’t have consequences for breaking rules end up like these two.

This one has “planned fights”, “staff receive injuries from pupils”, “pupils and staff feel unsafe”. Students “leave lessons because they want to” and “feel they have to misbehave to fit in.”

Alternatively, at this one, pupils use “racist and homophobic language”, and “vandalism, including offensive graffiti, poor behaviour and bad language are rife.”

“Some of the most vulnerable pupils have suffered violence or harm by other pupils” and “staff have received injuries from pupils.”

”Pupils do not feel safe because of the very poor behaviour” and have “had enough of being jostled and hurt in corridors and verbally abused.”

Bit shit to name the school and potentially get a kid in trouble for going off-message

They're probably looking at a 48 hour stint in the refocus room

As they should be. Any DC with common sense should realise that you don’t get to bad mouth your school at an open evening.

Maybe that was their plan.
48 hours in a calm dark room and not having to do any actual school work 😂

Was your reply ironic?! Germany wanted to negotiate in 1917 and asked the US to arrange this, but instead the war went into the most vicious and deadly phase - and years later it is reasonably well established that US and UK leaders (not to mention the background influences) considered that to continue would be better for the coffers.

But it is interesting you are right. I was just commenting on the level of BS, I am reading something written on the topic by Arthur Ponsonby at the moment. The very clear message is that the war could have been avoided, and everyone high up at the time was well aware of this, and should have been avoided. Ring any contemporary bells?

Sorry OP, this was sort of linked but has now become very off topic!

Punishment is the very last thing they should be doing. And what about all the petty punishments for minor misdemeanours? It is well known that students can't learn in that sort of stressful environment. It is disgraceful.

Best way to ensure good behaviour in children is motivation and respect. Where children have been treated so appallingly for years and not managed or supervised properly for so long they are violent and out of control, then they do need something separate from other children but it has to be something which is in accordance with research and effective at helping them and something which meets their needs

What is happening now is the highway to hell.

Look at schools which deal with behaviour well - you will find a strong, decent culture based on meeting children's needs.

Not hugely surprised that the BBC doesn't understand the issues. Not hugely surprised to see a small core group of people defending it on MN.

Don't bother replying, I am leaving the thread.

How was she badmouthing the school. She was showing OP the detention room and saying what she was there for. It was purely factual. It is her normal and she is probably unaware that other schools are not the same. It is best that the OP is forewarned so she can apply for different schools.

I agree with you 100%