Black people don’t really matter but the loss of Charlie Kirk is a tragedy.

[QOrion]

I posted this in response to a short thread on Feminism and Women’s Rights but I want more people to see it. I want to have my say, even if I’m late to the conversation, and even if most people don’t care. I don’t expect many replies but maybe I’ll make some people think about what I’m saying.

I guess none of you are black. It’s the only way you can go out of your way to highlight this man’s ’virtues’. I don’t believe anyone is born bad or is irredeemably bad, I guess that’s my Christian upbringing, but I also don’t understand the deification of this man and the need for many people on this website to paint him in the best possible light. He’s not the first public figure to be shot and killed, even this year. If those deaths were even mentioned on Mumsnet, they certainly weren’t given much attention.

I’d never heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot and his death had little impact on me. I have serious issues in my own life, people are shot and killed in America every day and there is a lot of suffering going on around the world, a lot of atrocities committed. It didn’t seem to be an incident that affected me in any significant way, even when I discovered his position on transgender ideology. I share essentially the same position on transgender ideology with many people I don’t want to be associated with.

Then I read his comments about black people. I can’t wax lyrical about how Charlie Kirk was ‘decent’ and ‘respectful’. How, ‘Isn’t it nice he gave his political opponents a platform’. And I can’t feel any kind of kinship with people who, knowing what he’s said about black people, still feel compelled to highlight his good qualities.

Let me be clear: I don’t believe he should have been killed. I don’t even support the death penalty in any circumstance, so I can hardly support Charlie Kirk being killed. But I am learning, not for the first time, that Mumsnetters in general, and users of this subforum (FWR) tend to ignore black people and our concerns, until we are useful. Whether that is taking cases to court when much is made of the claimant’s ethnic heritage (why?) or the perennial ‘transgenderism is womanface, it’s offensive like blackface’.

You have no idea and I think it is possible you will never understand just how much slights about my ethnic heritage cut deep. Slights to my womanhood are pretty trivial in comparison. I think this is something white women will never understand. So, you go on singing the virtues of Charlie Kirk. We’ll be here the next time you need to exploit us for your own purposes.

Are you serious? George Floyd was killed by the police. The very people who have sworn to uphold the law and protect citizens.

A white police officer knelt on his neck for over 9 minutes.

It doesn’t matter what George had done, if you accept the police can kill anyone they want, then you may as well hand the country over to despots.

Is this comment racist? Do you need to ask? Assumes black people are good at basketball, white people can't play basketball. But presumably this is being held up as "not racist" because it picks.a stereotype where black people are supposed to be good at the thing. And white people are supposed to be not good at the thing.

Let's look for similar examples in other areas....swimming, dancing, maths. Actually, let's not.

Op, I'm white and, while I disagree with quite a lot of what you have said, def agree about the double standard.

Look at the comments on the thread about the Sikh woman who was raped, denying the racial element or asking if it mattered.

Look at the people saying the Kirk murder shows the lack of empathy & murderousness of the Left. This is a huge problem. But so is the lack of empathy and murderousness of the Right. Look at the murders and attempted murders they have recently committed. Look at Trump's joking in response to Paul & Nancy Pelosi's attempted murder, and the people calling for Keir Starmer to be shot. Look at those who said the Pelosi killer was Paul's secret lover. Look at the right wing comments celebrating the deaths of trans teens or migrants in boats, to name a few.

This DM article, for one. Truly evil comments.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14514643/Migrant-drowns-Channel-trying-reach-Britain-return-warm-weather-sees-small-boat-crossings-eight-days.html?ico=amp-comments-viewall&_gl=11cxh6qg_gaMlByaG8zMy11bFZaN1VqcFg3Uk8xN3pIZlY0RjB3b1NxVTlRYmJaX214MnEyeEoxVEExX3J6MjdsTWRuVTRxNg.._ga_C9F47K6NW6*MTc1Nzg4MjcwMi4xLjEuMTc1Nzg4MjcyOS4wLjAuMA..#comments-14514643

We also see it in crime narratives. When young black men from poor families and w other social problems commit crime, that is rightly not treated as an excuse for criminal behaviour.

But when young white men from poor families & w similar lack of opportunities commit crime, too many (not all ofc) right wing commentators excuse it by saying that immigration is making their lives harder and they can't help it!

They rightly wouldn't accept that argument from BLM protestors saying poor black men had no choice but to riot. They would rightly denounce it as patronising and morally wrong.

But they don't recognise that it's equally patronising and morally wrong to act as if poor white men have no option but to riot, attack and insult the police & urinate in public.

I meant towards black people, as per the OP.
He's not saying that white people are not good at this particular 'thing' - just that black people are better. Which in terms of the NBA, statistically, they ARE (and also make up 75% of the league)
This was often the case with Charlie's debates: he would merely present facts on whatever subject. That people simply didn't like a lot of those facts, doesn't stop them being facts unfortunately.

As a white person, I can't get worked up about CK saying black people are better at basketball than white people. Because it's true.

Don't let the truth get in your way.

It was white folks that ran to her aid when they felt it safe to do so - not the black folks in the video.

We will also ignore the fact that the killer has a history of mental health issues and has been indiscriminate in his assaults.

His mother and many of us black folks have condemned the killing on social media, but please, don't let that get in the way of your nonsense.

We have discussed this in shock and horror in my black house, but again, don't let that stop you.

There has been no thread on MN regarding this, but by all means, use it to derail the OP's thread. I have seen one person mention it on a thread, but it was completely drowned out by Charlie Kirk adulation. That shows genuine care.

Carry on...

I wonder if, having used the example of the NBA and black people being better at basketball as a reason to distrust DEI... Charlie then went on to discuss and really dive deep in his 'debates' into what reasons there might be for blacks being better at that sport. Something tells me he might not have done.

Charlie was racist
Charlie hated women
Charlie wouldn't stop talking about opposing to abortion even though he's not a women and he isn't a physician.

Just because he's dead doesn't mean he was an absolute horrible person.

He was disgusting. And their are unfortunately many more like him.

He had several abhorrent opinions which I have seen far too many posters excuse/agree with.

That's not the same as people expressing sorrow for his brutal murder.

Someone can have been the victim of a brutal murder AND have had several horrible opinions. They aren't mutually exclusive.

JFK was murdered, it doesn't negate his horrible treatment of women, for one.

I know thee have been SM people celebrating, which is also vile.

OP a man has just been publicly assassinated, leaving behind a young family. It's not all about you.

I am not black but I agree with you. CK's brand of 'Christianity' is certainly not mine. There has been a strong influx of posters recently who seem to confuse the holy cross with a swastika... Some might be genuine posters but I suspect many are not. There's a concerted online effort to target the UK as the next battleground for MAGA.
It's going to get rough, but bear in mind that many women like myself find CK's views and this whole fucking road to Gilead abhorrent. I've been called a 'radical' for pointing out that we should reject political violence wholesale but should definitely stand up against the toxic ideology that the man and TPUSA have been spearheading. They want us to believe they've already won. They really haven't.

The man should never have been assassinated.

The man's ideas must continue to be debated and pushed back against. That's free speech in a free society.

The man's ideas must continue to be debated and pushed back against. That's free speech in a free society.

Yes. But I can't quite aee what point the OP is actually making here.

Charlie was a devout Catholic so was deeply against abortion. He believed in traditional Christian values and the importance of the family. That doesn't make him a misogynist. I'm pretty sure if he'd been a devout Muslim with the same views his murder would be condemned by those same posters. But because he was a Christian white guy then he must be a nasty person.
I've listened to Charlie Kirk for years and not once seen him be anything but kind and respectful towards black people, gay people, trans people etc. Sometimes he presented statistics and research they didn't like but that doesn't make him racist or transphobic or whatever.

It is very clear. OP feels uncomfortable that people glorify a man who was openly very racist among other things.
He shouldn’t have been assassinated as there is no place for political violence in civilised world. However, the murder does not negate the fact that he was despicable.

Hitler is dead as well. Should we start threads expressing sadness about the fact that he committed suicide? Of course not. Just because someone is dead it doesn’t mean he/she wasn’t a bad person.

Out of interest what would you have done when you've just seen someone murdered in front of you on a moving train and the killer is stood there, knife still in hand? Because I've examined my conscience from every angle and I might have stayed rooted terrified in my seat. Because I don't wanna die too.

There have been some very challenging threads on this subject OP, and I too have been shocked by some of the views expressed.
I think that there has been a lot of people from the US on the boards who are supporters of CK, and that the emotional outpouring from them has emboldened those with racist views.
The first group cannot be debated, because they speak from a position of deeply rooted beliefs that it can be hard for people from the UK to understand, and they use devices in debate that make exchange of views impossible.
They are exhausting to be on the other side of, and other than one or two tenacious posters, who have my respect, people have tended to step away if they disagree because its like banging ones head against a wall.
There are other people who are speaking from fear. They see a man shot by someone we now believe has a link to the trans community, and fear this is another manifestation of the fight to silence GC people, like themselves.
Its been a difficult few days on these threads and I can only imagine how this has left you feeling OP. I'm a white woman, and I agree with you.

What about when the attacker left? Hmmm? The side glance from the woman sitting adjacent to her. As The young girl gave her a pleading look. Then the woman got up and left.

👏👏👏

Crime rates in Charlotte is higher than national Average, I get that it’s scary and dangerous to leap out and tend to someone while the killer is still walking around, the three or four passengers still did nothing when other people came over and helped , couple of black men and one white woman later came over and helped .
I really hope people don’t make it sound as though all black , south Asians, East Asians, middle easterners or Hispanics are all like that.
America is so broken right now, it’s very concerning. Hate and discrimination is not even being disguised any more it’s out in the open.

You're 100% correct, OP. Good luck having anyone acknowledge that on here, though.

I agree with the OP.

Thank you. I am glad to see some people have sense. If I'm honest, a lot of the reason I can't get behind the FWR board isn't because I don't agree about some of what they say. It's because they are willing to embrace the very worst of values because they agree on that one issue.

Are you serious? There were whole school assemblies about George Floyd.

I couldn’t care less that he’s dead.

Oh FFS. What a silly comment.