Teachers: do you find it hard? (high school toilets)

[Fillyfrog]

DD started high school yesterday. We had a transition support meeting before starting (possible asd) and SENCO offered a toilet pass due to lots of anxiety over needing a wee and not being able to go or find a toilet (this is long standing and not just due to new school)
Children are allowed to go at break and lunch and that's it, if they need it any other time it's tough.

Toilet pass wasn't sorted for today and DD begged to go in her last lesson. She said she was close to tears and the teacher still said no. Absolutely not.

I know they have rules for a reason. But, even if she didn't have anxiety and a possible toilet pass

What if someone gets a sudden stomach ache and needs to go to the toilet for a poo quite suddenly?
What if a girl comes on their period suddenly and needs to go and it can't wait until the end of the day? I can't imagine how heartless the teachers must feel to look at a child close to tears on their first day, desperate for the toilet and to just say no and that's it 🙈 it's hard to comprehend as an adult who is able to go to the toilet whenever they want to. It feels like a basic human right.

I full agree but you will get a load of people coming on saying that its the bad behaviour, vaping, bullying etc...... that goes on in the toilets that means others cant use them. And also that teachers cant use the toilet when they want to etc....... doesnt mean its right for any of it.

Every human should be allowed to go to the toilet when they need it. Yes, some kids will take the piss but a lot wont. I was a cocky, little contrary fucker when I was younger (the complete opposite of me now) and i would have wet myself in front of the teacher just to prove a point!

Honestly most kids are chancers when it comes to toilet use. Discretion is used when a child who doesn't normally ask, asks. We do get a bit jaded and there are some very good actors out there when you get a new group.

Yes, some kids will "take the piss" 😂

Ex secondary teacher.

it’s genuinely less of an issue than you think.

the vast vast majority of kids never ask to go during a lesson. They go at break or lunch.

it’s genuinely a quite unusual lesson when we’re e someone asks.

the exception is where you have a student with medical needs and usually this is flagged to you in advance and /or they have a toilet pass.

very, very occasionally, like twice a year will someone ask to go who doesn’t have a toilet pass. I let them go, although I have got into trouble for it before.

(a year 10 girl who asked who was generally well behaved if a bit talkative and never asked but then she met up with friends at the toilets and they ran around school shouting in windows).

It's still not okay, though. OP, yes, some kids don't behave, but let one out at a time, and use your situational judgement - rather than a blanket no. Though teachers will obviously have some level of bias, etc, involved in this, it's better than a blanket no policy. Toilets should just be single room, to be honest. Different at lunch and break, but still all students shouldn't be punished due to a possibility they'll do x. Also, if a kid genuinely starts getting that distressed, I'd just give them the benefit of the doubt.

It's not good for students and research shoes that more girls aren't coming in on their periods - for many reasons, but many are mentioning toilet policies, that mean they feel uncomfortable on their period. I remember in secondary, our head of years would give everyone a period pass, when they had it and give to them - but that was her own thing, not a school directive but it helped all of us and all the girls appreciated it. I get people saying they should learn to manage it, but thay sort of attitude to women, of just get on with it, ignoring how many horrible symptoms a period brings just encourages these girls to accept being dismissed.

Thr main thing I'd be made about OP though is the fact they didn't communicate it on time to teachers - they should all have known in advance and the pass should have been prepared. Have they alerted all her teachers yet?

I agree. I work in a school. School policy is that toilet use during lessons is monitored and recorded but no child is ever denied access to the toilet. Some staff who join us from other schools can find adjusting to that quite difficult if they’ve been somewhere that has a very hardline policy on toilet use.

I've worked in one school really strict with it and one less so. It's actually more confusing in the second one. First one kids would be brought back by SLT if you let them go without a toilet pass. Genuinely more safeguarding issues in that school (kids caught smoking weed in the toilets, sexual activity - serious things) and the students just got used to making sure they went at break and lunch. Timetable was never more than two 50 minute lessons together (+ 20 min tutor in AM).

Current school, you're allowed to give students a pass but there's very wishy washy language around it, which basically means the naughtier students are pushy about going and then wander the school and miss half the lesson. I actually think it's deeply unfair as the quieter students choose to go at break/lunch. We do have a system where you're supposed to log when students go to the toilet during class, a text is sent home so parents can see, heads of year have the toilet key during lessons so there's a discussion with anyone going repeat times a day. But still there's clear inconsistencies which just seems unfair to the majority of students. And it is disruptive when they miss half the lesson and chose not to go at break (totally different if there were queues).

Students with SEND should have their own pass IMO. I think discretion should be allowed especially for accidents but be aware there's often pressure on teachers from SLT not to allow it.

I’m 26, and been in my first ‘proper’ job since 2022 - so secondary wasn’t TOO long ago and we were taught the classic, well you can’t go to the toilet when you like because when you’re working that’s not reality…. yes it is! The majority of us don’t have to even mention it to someone! Secondary school is appalling in many ways

My children's primary school introduced this rule earlier this year (which I think is ridiculously cruel btw, as younger kids' control is notoriously unpredictable). You even have to wear an embarrassing lanyard if you want to go to the toilet during break times so everyone knows what you are doing. That aside ...

I've told my girls that if they're ever genuinely desperate for the toilet while in class and are refused, to just get up, walk out and go, and I will deal with any repercussions. I know a lot of other parents have done the same.

I appreciate it may be difficult for your daughter to feel able to do this considering her anxiety, but if it IS something she might be open to, maybe you could tell her it's ok to do this and you'll have her back? Nobody should be a denied a human right like this when they are clearly desperate - it annoys me so much. Poor girl.

I’ve taught for a very very long time. Toilets were never an issue. Occasionally a kid would put their hand up in a lesson and ask to go. You let them because it just didn’t happen that often. Then something happened about five years ago- round about the time lockdown ended and toilets became an absolute battleground situation. Kids asking all the time and stories on social media about kids being told no led to parents getting really annoyed about it and making a fuss -IF MY KID WANTS THE LOO THEM THEY ARE GOING! Kids saw toilets as a way of being able to ‘push back’. So then you had kids asking to go all the time. We now have a situation where so many kids asking to go to the loo in lesson it is ridiculous. Amongst those are kids who genuinely need to go.

Out school has a policy of ask and you can go. I guarantee at least 6 go each lesson - even if we have just had break and it’s pretty much the same kids who have no known medical reason to need to go as often as they do.
I really don’t know what the answer is. I don’t want to stop kids going to the loo ( even though I can’t) but equally I am frustrated at the amount of piss taking that goes on. Toilets aren’t supervised in lessons and lots clearly ask to go so they can vape or just skive.

I want to be absolutely clear that I think anyone should be allowed to go to the loo when they want. I also want people to acknowledge that it can be really disruptive to a lesson when loads ask to go every lesson.

Interesting. I would have agreed with this a few years ago but something has changed and loads of kids asking to go now. Did you stop teaching within the last three years?

Secondary school teacher here (area of deprivation in Scotland). We would NEVER say no to an S1 going to the toilet on their first day. The toilet pass would have been issued too. We soon find out who the chancers are, and your daughter certainly doesn’t sound like one of them! It was poor judgement on the teacher’s part and you should chase up the toilet pass.
Hope it gets better! 😊

But both schools still allow it, you can give a pass to them in the 1st one and then it's not an issue. Or in the 1st school was the criteria for a pass higher? Because if its student asks and has to be given a pass to go, I don't think that's a problem. Along as they aren't actually denied to go. The 2nd school seems to be more situational judgement but I don't think that's necessarily bad, sometimes inconsistency can work - as hopefully you know the kids, and can judge the situation (obviously adds an element of bias and stereotypes) but can still work.

Another problem with policies like this, is people may not be diagnosed yet or have proof. I later had a medical card in 6th form - though I never used it, as anyone who asked could go, I don't think teachers restricted 6th form and they knew about my issues anyways so wouldn't have for me.

But I also needed that earlier in secondary and didn't. At the time I was still under investigation for issues and also didn't know that some of the things I was experiencing weren't normal. I just depended on teachers liking me and knowing I'd catch up etc, so they'd let me go. This is the same for so many girls in particular but also all students. I think the process my old head of year in secondary (for a few years) worked for periods, she'd write a note in our planner and that was it. It could be abused as you had to go to her to get it (and so she'd know if you came more than once a month), and also it wasn't possible for someone to use another girls planner, since she'd used the girls name etc. And tbh nobody abused it or anything like that because we knew how lucky we were to have it, and that if we did abuse it, she'd likely be told she shouldn't be doing it anymore.

I work in a school and the rule is no toilet visits during lessons - for the reasons of distraction from learning, safeguarding etc. However, I am a professional and if a kid obviously really really needs to go, I'll let them. I say "ask me in 5 minutes when I've finished explaining X". If they really need to go, they'll ask again. If they dont, they leave it.

For all the parents who say it's terrible they can't go when they like - would you be happy for a teacher to leave a class unattended to go to the loo? If I have to wait (and my bladder is pretty crap after 2 kids!) then any teenager can hang on for the end of the lesson!

Oh for gods sake. I hate rubbish like this. I’d be telling my DD to just walk out and go to the toilet, and tell the school to call her mother.

This ^
and surprisingly in majority of jobs you don’t need to wear a tie

If your dd just started high school it is unusual to refuse.

Usually in the first few weeks new pupils may be given leeway.

However, dome schools have an on call system where another member of staff escorts pupils to the toilets as they are often locked ( and toilets available to pupils with passes who go get a key from the office etc often have big queues).

Usually you would not let pupils go in the last 10 minutes as by the time anyone turns up to escort them it will be gone time anyway and the main toilets would be unlocked at this point.

It’s quite easy to tell with experience who really needs to go (in which case teacher discretion is used) and who is just doing a boredom wee, doesn’t want to do the next task or who has arranged to meet their mates.

We have a shared list of students who are allowed out for medical reasons. There aren’t many and you very quickly get used to who it is and can let them out with some simple eye contact without disrupting everyone.

A close friend's daughter, who was an excellent student in terms of ability and attitude asked to use toilet. Male teacher refused so she had to explain she had heavy period and could feel she needed to change protection. Still refused. She flooded. Thus, year head called and asked parent to collect, meaning rather than missing 5 minutes she missed rest of day as well as facing embarrasment.
Year head advised school policy was she needed Doctor's letter for toilet pass.
Thus, she then had to take up valued extra NHS appointment for GP, who unlike school did not know her, for GP to take her word and provide note leading to pass.
Totally ridiculous. Teachers are professionals and adults and should be able to manage these situations as they arise.

Yes I do find it hard.
Internal truancy has been a big problem in lots of schools I've been in, and toilet use just had to be a part of trying to tackle it. To be honest while it seemed harsh, the stricter ones have been much more pleasant to be in. The kids managed and we still had some discretion.

Actually I wouldn't mind a teacher being able to leave, sometimes my teachers would because it is a natural urge and like I think students shouldn't have to hold it, it should be easier for teachers to do the same. I know sometimes they'd ask a colleague to just stay there for one minute and they'd quickly go. Sometimes they just left the door open and then the teacher opposite could see.

Would this be appropriate for classes, definitely not, but teaching is very different to many other jobs in which as PP have mentioned you can go when you want. Plus just because a teachers cannot go, doesn't mean a student then shouldn't have to automatically, its different for a student v one teacher. It's bad for your bladder if you 'hold it' and no go when you need to.

I agree it's a problem, and I started off by thinking along the lines of well, it's a human right and I shouldn't say no, and how would l like it etc - and several things happened.

I had a couple of classes where it became a real problem - as soon as one person asked, another did, then another - it was ridiculous, but hey (as they told me) it was their human right.

Then we had some visitors in from the LEA for some reason and that afternoon a boy asked me if he could go - I tried to fob him off and distract him, but he threatened impending doom, so I did let him go. He met up with friends and they ran round school misbehaving and even did some damage. Afterwards I was stopped on the corridor by some bod in a suit I had never met. He asked if I was Mrs Vexed, told me what had happened and then told me I must never let pupils out if they didn't have a pass and that they had passed their concerns about me on to my HT. (Thanks for that Ryan from 9Z.)

So after that I learned the hard way and became the jaded teacher who says no - unless with a toilet pass. Occasionally I would let a child go if I felt they really were desperate and it they didn't have a history of vexatious toilet going. Had the teacher known your daughter better, they might have let her go, but they had probably had a stern talking to that morning - start as you mean to go on sort of thing.

At least you know that she will have a toilet pass.

@Superhansrantowindsor

yes I left teaching a couple of years ago,

I guess it’s changed a lot since then.

Commenting to add that self harm is a huge issue which almost always occurs in the toilets. This is a massive cause for concern for me in letting pupils go to the toilet.
We’ve had pupils use the THC vapes, take drugs, drink alcohol, self harm and even attempt suicide in the toilets. We’ve also had pupils contact others outside school to arrange fights etc whilst in the toilets. It’s a huge responsibility in the moment to decide whether a pupil genuinely needs to go or whether they’re up to no good.

My dd has a toilet pass, but would still be escorted by head of year so won't use it.