Teachers: do you find it hard? (high school toilets)

[Fillyfrog]

DD started high school yesterday. We had a transition support meeting before starting (possible asd) and SENCO offered a toilet pass due to lots of anxiety over needing a wee and not being able to go or find a toilet (this is long standing and not just due to new school)
Children are allowed to go at break and lunch and that's it, if they need it any other time it's tough.

Toilet pass wasn't sorted for today and DD begged to go in her last lesson. She said she was close to tears and the teacher still said no. Absolutely not.

I know they have rules for a reason. But, even if she didn't have anxiety and a possible toilet pass

What if someone gets a sudden stomach ache and needs to go to the toilet for a poo quite suddenly?
What if a girl comes on their period suddenly and needs to go and it can't wait until the end of the day? I can't imagine how heartless the teachers must feel to look at a child close to tears on their first day, desperate for the toilet and to just say no and that's it 🙈 it's hard to comprehend as an adult who is able to go to the toilet whenever they want to. It feels like a basic human right.

Yep I have and only ever stopped once because guess what? kids don't take the piss when they are on a school trip.

I also have seen a child die when they took a seatbelt off and given your mate wants kids to be allowed to take seatbelts off on coaches that is a huge concern.

I go all the time and weirdly the only time I have ever had an issue was being stuck in traffic on a motorway after 3 hours of travelling and there was no safe place to stop for the kids to go for a wee. Guess what? They managed! They got creative and did a piss regardless!

There was no way that the children could get off the coach on a motorway. I know your mate would let that happen and let kids piss at the side of the road while at a risk of them getting run over but absolutely not.

You'd be happy to put kids lives at risk for the sake of a piss.

My point that you ignored and missed completely is - when there are 20 kids who want to go each lesson, how come 20 kids never ask when on a coach. Odd that? Explain it away? Surely that day their bladder just stopped working or is there something else going on that caused them to stop needing to go every 2 minutes?

I know what it is!

Between 2.40 and 3.30 today, 60+ students went to the toilet. A significant number of those had been during every lesson of the day.

That's ludicrous.

Or, in a standard secondary comprehensive, 6% of children used the toilet during 14% of the school day.

Takeoff and landing only last a few minutes. Unless there are delays or issues, if the plane isn’t moving you can usually go. I’ve said multiple times before I don’t expect students to be let out immediately as soon as they ask, if they can wait 5-10 minutes they should. If it’s a key part of a lesson and a teacher says “wait ten minutes,” that’s okay too, as long as the student isn’t desperate/emergency/medical.
For me, with medical issues (different chronic illnesses, and multiple cause issues around toliets), I go several times in the airport depending on how bad things are that day and as I get special assistance in the airport, I can go again before I get on the plane whilst others board and then get on in time. On the plane, I go as soon as it’s safe. If I can’t hold it (which is bad for anyone to do regularly but bad for me even as a one off, and I can't do it most times anyways, definitely not for more than a few minutes). I’d tell the flight attendants. Sometimes I wear incontinence pads on my worst days because when I used to bleed through everything. Yes I go way more frequently than the average person, but I as a whole listen to my needs, because when I didn't, I would faint during boarding and that had a much worse impact on everyone getting on, as it delayed the plane. Fortunately everyone was very kind about it. I have special assistance as I can't stand for long and repeatdly with security and boarding so do get through quite quickly and can go that many times.

On periods, the research I referred to showed increases in problems recently, not just the usual levels of period poverty, which has reduced on the whole (not in every local area). It found three main reasons: toilet restrictions, shame or fear of asking, and lack of empathy or support around periods in general at school/policies. Period poverty is still part of it but studies found that the increases weren't accountable by period poverty, many schools now provide free products of all types (pads, cups, tampons - 94% of secondaries do), often with council or local initiatives too. I’m not ignoring any girls (not sure what you mean by that). I’ve spent years advocating on menstrual health since Y10, working with schools and MATs, doing workshops for students and teachers, working with them to get a better range of menstrual products and initatives to get more girls such products, in and out of schools, I've worked with school to adapt/create the policies/framework in schools on menstruation and menstrual health.

Yes, periods aren’t regular for everyone. Mine were every two weeks or constant at times in school and sometimes for a whole month or even 6 weeks straight. "Just go before the lesson” doesn’t always work. Not enough toilets, not enough time between classes, and you risk being late. That can be disruptive if a few students are doing that but it doesn’t change that students have bleed through when they’re told no, many have talked about it happening on this thread and I have talked to countless girls from many schools I've done said work for and heard their experiences too and it did happen to be as well (I used 2 products and would aim to go every hour and still bleed through when I'd gone a little bit before, at this time I didn't have the other medical problems I now do which mean I had medical pass etc). We can both be right about the experiences we've had, you may not have seen it happen but I have and had it happen to me,more than once.

Also as mentioned, teen years are the first time girls start to be symptomatic if they have a condition causing it and diagnosis takes time - they won't have medical diagnoses yet and for many will think that its normal or be feed the line that they are over dramatic (sometimes by schools, or home or healthcare). That's why I support, at the bare minimum, period passes. Schools that do this tend to have a better culture on this and students feel better about asking on the whole. A lot of girls fear asking at all. Many report sexism and jokes from boys in class, and even teachers.

"Also no one is saying they should shut up heavy bleeding or not stop, you clearly lack basic reading skills as no one has said that at all. Implying I have is false and clearly l acks understanding."
I wasn’t saying you argued for silence about heavy bleeding, I know you didn't, but should have clarified. My point was about the wider picture where women and girls are told to shut up and put up across school culture, home, workplaces, healthcare etc. Awareness is improving but practice hasn’t, which is why change should start early in schools, and not inadvertently embed these messages as acceptable. Other countries are moving further with menstrual leave, better gynaecology access, and stronger school policies.

@Fetaface The research I mentioned showed a recent rise in problems around periods in school, not just the usual levels linked to period poverty. It found three main reasons behind the increase in anxiety about being in school during periods, even when free products were available or parents provided them. First were toilet restrictions and the shame that made girls afraid to ask or admit they were on their period. Second was the lack of empathy or support in schools and policies. Third was harassment, with constant period jokes from boys, tied to a wider rise in sexism.

On coaches, I wasn’t saying that students should demand a stop or that they shouldn't be forced to wear seatbelts (that bit was an aside about how for me hadn't awlays been enforced when under 10ish, though I was in different countries for some of that time, but not that I think that's a good thing). It only happened a twice for secondary where we stopped (and no I don't think coaches should have to stop on the road) but both times they were desperate and the bus stopped at the next service station. They had already waited as long as they could, before even telling a teacher, they didn't want to have to stop. It took only a few minutes and the 1st time nobody else went, as we knew it was emergency and the 2nd time 5-10 other girls went, but the place we stopped had a few shops and one had a few public toliets. Teachers usually told us all to go before, and basically everyone did, we knew it was a long journey. At least from Y7-9ish, they were pretty good at explaining that we should and after that students knew, and we all went before still in Y9+. That prevented most problems.

On the point that they somehow ask on a bus but don't in lesson. Many girls said (from the research) if they asked they were told no repeatedly until they had no choice but to admit it was their period in front of the whole class. We also see the same evidence of embarrassment over asking for period products, so even when schools have the free ones, having to ask acts as a barrier to some using them. Though some schools, like one of mine did, have them in the toliets, and gave a free amount to everyone to take home so it wasn’t on students to ask. For some it depends on the class (each was a separate incident in the research), the teacher, and whether they feel safe saying it to them, or that even if they say/gesture to talk in private maybe they don't want to say for a male teacher. The issue is backed up by data and reflected in the stories I’ve heard from lots of girls across many different schools and, from friends, and my own.

But you do have a point, data is looking at everything. So yes some girls may have a teacher on the coach, they like and trust andfeel okay telling them that they are on their period even if they don't, this would likely be for a moment of desperation. Sometimes its more about the boys who they don't want to know (rise in misogyny and jokes around periods among other things, which on the whole aren’t tackled by schools).

Holding it in regularly is harmful. It leads to infections and is bad on the whole for your bladder. Some kids even avoid drinking to get around bans, which ties into wider mental health issues across young people (as many on this thread have also talked about). Toliet use at my school was tracked as I know most schools do. If someone asked every lesson, staff investigated whether it was medical, safeguarding, or misbehaviour. For repeat offenders, they had to go with an escort. That worked well, because if it was genuine they could still go, but if it was avoidance or disruption it was addressed and would easily be flagged across the day by those staff escorting,(we had quite a lot of staff on duty, non-teaching and available for lots of things during lessons). The baseline policy was always that students could go, just one at a time, unless high suspicion of a safeguarding thing (SH), or behaviour, and then dealt with accordingly.

As for supervision, I don't expect constant staff presence, nor do I think staff should be constantly watching students, as I do support kids being able to go most of the time. Supervision as a whole around the rest of the school, should obviously happen (though even in a corridor with no staff, there's CCTV, and often sight from both directions etc, and staff on duty).
I just mean even with supervision of a toliet misbehaviour happens. The issues occurring in the toliet are a byproduct of wider problems - which will and do happen elsewhere in school and outside it (obviously the things happening outside school isn't for teachers to manage - vaping, drugs, bullying, MH). Rather than putting a band aid on the issue (by stopping it happening in x place) - the majority of the focus needs to be on dealing with the causes of those problems (from schools, the home, other agencies, government,) everyone has a part to play and shouldn't be completely blaming one side or not working together (but a key thing need to help this is funding from government, for resources, more TAs, better CAHMS services etc, not underfunded schools).

If a kid is asking every lesson, most schools now track that, or at least track it if they spend over x amount of time. If it was every lesson, or even just every time they had x teacher, I’d expect pastoral staff or the HOY to step in and had comversations to see if its an emerging medical issue, a safeguarding concern, or misbehaviour (wandering around etc). Then the student would have different expectations, and if it was misbehaviour it should be dealt with and staff given appropriate instructions.
In my secondary from Y10/11, repeat offenders could still go but only with an escort. If it was a student using the toilet because they were struggling, then we give them more support. If it was medical and not disclosed yet, that had to be addressed.

The system worked well for those few students, but the baseline policy was to let students go or if they had a high suspicion of something, they could get the staff we had for each year, for any pastoral issues in lessons. We also had plenty more toilets than most schools across each corridor/subject area (hard to explain the layout).

Finally I wouldn't say I rally for anything, but I do advocate, campaign and develop policy. Toilets on buses shouldn't necessarily be top priority, with the little amount of money we have, but working on the goals and policies to get there along with other aspects of transport reform, is something I would explore. I may contact some people I know work a lot more in transport policy and see what they think and what they know and get their help. Why not?

Also, I'm very sorry you had to see a kid die, teachers often support kids with lots of traumatic things but seeing that is horrible and I hope you got support to deal with that to.

Sorry about your experience! First school you weren't allowed to let students go unless they had a toilet pass (individual to them, needed medical evidence to get it). Which was difficult as sometimes you would know a student well, understand they were genuinely suddenly desperate and let them go quickly hoping they wouldn't get stopped on the way there or back. And then you'd still have multiple students asking to go at the same time since you let that child go.

Second school teachers can hand students a pass. I understand the reasoning of it and don't have the perfect solution at all but it does tend to be the same students asking to go, kicking up a huge fuss and being disruptive until allowed to go (or behaviour system used depending on what's happened) and the quieter ones just go at break and lunch. There's also been multiple instances of students in different classes arranging to meet up by leaving their next class.

It's really tricky even when toilets are locked and students supposed to go to their head of year to get the key so they can monitor who's going in and out (and students not being left alone together) but ultimately wandering the school can be a safeguarding risk. At the same time, students do get unexpected period leaks, medical issues, there was too big a queue at break time... It's a minefield but there are reasons for saying no.

Even just classes I've had where 5 students want to go to the toilet, and I have one going on their own every 10-15
minutes, coming back with no idea what we've just done that they needed for the next stage of the lesson. Doing that regularly doesn't seem like there's a genuine unexpected accident about to happen and it disrupts other students.

I'd love to know anyone's suggestions for letting teachers use their judgement as to who gets to go and when without detracting from the lesson and just becoming toilet manager / argument defuser for 50 minutes!

@ridl14 No I do understand your concerns, I addressed some of them earlier, there's no one solution, as you say even where there's a key with HOY, issues still happen. I did see this article earlier, where it seems Ofsted have reprimanded a school over having an overly strict policy, https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/25451552.southchurch-high-school-southend-ofsted-monitoring-visit/

I think a mix of different rules are needed to keep it as sage as possible but also sometimes the issues themselves need tackling (with help from other services and funding etc) not just removing from a specific area.

Wow that is awful! Policy that you can go but incur a detention ☹️

I can definitely see the arguments against a strict toilet policy (kind of surprises me in a way as when I was at secondary, that's also how it was!). I also think the main thing is SLT and middle leaders communicating what the policy is clearly and sticking to it. It is annoying and confusing on all sides when there's inconsistency.

Before I went on mat leave I'd basically just let anyone go that asked and said it was an emergency 🤷🏻‍♀️ judgement be damned, it wasn't being followed up by anyone despite us being told in most staff meetings not to let students go unless they were really desperate

Yes I think however situational judgement should still be allowed for teachers, I mean I think if a teacher is genuinely getting told off and pulled on it by SLT, it's a sign of micromanaging staff in general. I think that's anyone reason for many teachers burnout, they don't work with SLT, rather it feels like a fight between them, and then it passes down to the kids, and parents as well. My solutions would be a mix of ideas, but the only thing I don't support is a 100% ban during lesson time, also not many schools even have enough toliets for that many to go during break and lunch, so that's a more long-term issue to be solved. I think systems where perhaps a teacher gives a key (from the class) and one at a time, with those who have persistently not been sensible when let out perhaps getting an escort etc, could work. Even with going in between lessons, that leads to loads going at once, and there's very little time between changeover for many schools.

Yes, sounds very sensible! I think someone else mentioned a system where you on call for students to be escorted to the toilet, could work in some situations. Funding and staffing dependent!

I suppose the issue is deciding when students need escorting and when they can just quickly take themselves. Again, you need teachers to be able to exercise some judgement and be backed up. And enough nearby available toilets (totally agree, the queues at break and lunch can be ridiculous as well and I don't think students are given enough time for breaks anyway).

Totally agree about the micromanaging, I think it's everywhere! And just means the teacher has pressure from above to say no to a student going, log it if they do go to the toilet, contact HOY if it's a persistent issue. Just creates a lot of unnecessary conflict and admin.

My DD's school has the rule that you can go to the toilet in class time, but you have to make up double the time in detention. She now wears period pants plus a pad every day, just in case.

Just to say that this school in this article are doing the same, and it was flagged by Ofsted during a visit, so I think you'd have grounds to say something because that is just wasting more staff time, as they need to supervise them in detention, more admin as well. https://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/25451552.southchurch-high-school-southend-ofsted-monitoring-visit/
That's the article. It's the polices you're talking about I'm against, just doesn't make sense. As much as I think a total ban is unreasonable, it doesn't mean I think that dozens of kids in a toliet block is a good idea. I think having individual toliets helps (for the future with school builds), where there's an area for sinks try and have doors open etc, open to the corridor, I know we had a problematic boys toliet, so swapped it for the downstairs girls one which was facing the office of pastoral staff and HOY offices and that helped massively, as in anything started loads of staff were around. If a kid is very persistent, I'd expect HOY or fomr tutor to be told, they can talk to the kid and see if its a medical issue they haven't disclosed, may be safeguarding something like SH etc, may be walking around to meet their friends, in which case those kids perhaps have to go the HOY to get a key. It's not perfect but it's much better and doesn't penalise kids who aren't doing anyhring ans then get more anxious and have a poorer relationship with school, especially with how common EBSA now is, policies like this won't help.

Yes micromanaging @ridl14 I feel in teaching is everywhere, even small things which start as helpful turn into it. Like homework schedules, or saying on week 3 and week 5 everyone has to do a 16 marker, somewhat useful but then what if a class might be better of doing another question that they are weaker in. A teacher isn't allowed to use their knowledge of the class to do AFL which suits them. There needs to be a balance of consistency for important things whilst also letting teachers retain professional judgement. For the issue like bullying etc or knives, I think that happening in toliets isn't the main issue. Of course it's bad and 100% bans would stop that, but a kid will still be bullied elsewhere in school, what matters more is dealing with the bullying, or knives (which requires way more funding, more multi disciplinary teams from SS, health, council etc as well).

It shouldn't all be on schools, honestly the public sector is crumbling and people would rather care about the 30-40k of asylum seekers on a boat, when compared to France and Germany we take nothing, even if we deported them all right now, do we think schools, SS, hospitals would get more funding, I bet politicans would just find anther group to blame for why we can't fund the public sector. Even with MATs who do have more money, where does it go, it goes to making a bunch of advisory position and paying consultants not to the kids or the school.

The same Ofsted who don't like ever seeing a single child out of lessons, least of all going to the toilet, by the way.

Ofsted can fuck off. Like they have a solution to the toilet problem.

Well that's a problem with inspections, sometimes you have good and fair inspectors and sometimes the complete opposite. However, I think this schools policy was very OTT. It was bans and detentions for going even if you were quick, you didn't cause any disruption etc. The article pointed out that "The current toilet procedures present risks to pupils’ mental and physical health. For example, some pupils deliberately limit their drinking throughout the day to avoid toilet use. In particular, the arrangements are not supportive of girls’ needs."
A blanket detention policy, doesn't help this issue, your getting a detention whether you go, are quick and don't misbehave or whether you don't do any of those things. I mean at that point a kid might as well go the longest route because they're already getting detention anyways.

Maybe having more humane Inspector and a humane framework is key, schools should still have oversight, they should be pulled up on things which are bad and major, (which are actually the schools fault, as in not funding, gov policy).

The irony that ofsted interview staff during lunch/breaks and before school and after school preventing them from having any break at all or toilet visit or even a drink.

That is awful! Your poor DD.

I do genuinely wonder why it wasn't an issue when I was at school, maybe we were all dehydrated?

My current school as a teacher I found it hard having 3 50 minute lessons + 20 min tutor time back to back, moving around a lot during, limiting drinking and needing to drink some as I'm still using my voice loudly and a lot. I did raise repeatedly I thought it was too much to expect of the kids

Exactly re the detentions! We had a similar nonsensical policy for students removed from lessons for poor behaviour. Half the detention time compared to being late so they may as well kick up enough of a fuss that they end up being removed - miss the lesson and get home earlier, win win