Teachers: do you find it hard? (high school toilets)

[Fillyfrog]

DD started high school yesterday. We had a transition support meeting before starting (possible asd) and SENCO offered a toilet pass due to lots of anxiety over needing a wee and not being able to go or find a toilet (this is long standing and not just due to new school)
Children are allowed to go at break and lunch and that's it, if they need it any other time it's tough.

Toilet pass wasn't sorted for today and DD begged to go in her last lesson. She said she was close to tears and the teacher still said no. Absolutely not.

I know they have rules for a reason. But, even if she didn't have anxiety and a possible toilet pass

What if someone gets a sudden stomach ache and needs to go to the toilet for a poo quite suddenly?
What if a girl comes on their period suddenly and needs to go and it can't wait until the end of the day? I can't imagine how heartless the teachers must feel to look at a child close to tears on their first day, desperate for the toilet and to just say no and that's it 🙈 it's hard to comprehend as an adult who is able to go to the toilet whenever they want to. It feels like a basic human right.

I think OP was saying in an ideal world, where schools have plenty of money and are overfunded not underfunded, that this would be her solution. I don't think she expects schools to be able to do this now.

It’s not ‘the mindless few’ though. There is a sort of mob mentality that comes in, I’ve spoken to parents who have worked hard to provide nice middle class lives for their kids, lovely big house in the right area, lovely village primary school, s, holidays galore, designer clothes etc whatever they need whenever they need it and the child has pulled a sink clean off a wall filming themself messing about in a toilet that they begged a passing teacher to unlock during a lesson. The teacher was then disciplined for the damage done as they let the child in. We are talking 14-15 year olds here. In a ‘naice’ school. Other times when toilets are unlocked at lunch we have had kids pants pulled down, doors kicked in when they’re using the loo and filmed, thc vapes sold to year 7s. For every parent fuming their child can’t come and go to the loo as and when, there is a parent fuming their child has been a victim of something in said loo or who has to deal with their kid being in trouble for something they’ve done in it.

schools have to have some sort of control over it, it’s the only way to keep kids safe. We try and be generous with toilet passes, not asking for ‘proof’ or anything like that, we pass on info re medical or anxiety related conditions so it’s distributed well and no one is not allowed who has a real need, we have coloured cards for kids who have been allowed to leave the lesson for the loo, we are lenient with year 7s. But every single term there is some sort of incident and some poor kid comes out of it badly and a parent is fuming. You cannot win.

We even provide pens and pencils and rulers , in a lovely branded pencil case, at my school, then get shirty emails when a kid loses theirs and is asked to provide another. Doubt anyone is going to willingly pay for a dbs to monitor the loos!

With staff who think needing to use the bathroom or having an upset stomach is a sign of "main character syndrome" it truly is shocking that so many students find schools are not suited to their needs.

It's also wonder that so many parents refuse to "support the school" when your only solution for a problem that every other advanced country has managed to solve is a particularly degrading form of collective punishment. If I were a student who did the work, followed the rules, and generally did everything I could to make your job as a teacher easier, and your response to all that was refusing to let me use the toilet, I would lose every shred of respect I had for you, as would anyone else with even an ounce of self-respect.

There is no world where children, particularly girls, should be stopped from using the toilets when they need to. A “toilet pass” is horrible thing to have. Children having to declare a personal issue to the entire class is just not on.

If schools have a problem with kids using toilets to avoid class or with vandalism etc, that’s a management issue, it should not be solved by denying children access to a basic provision.

Yes of course. As they feel so strongly about the right of their dc to have open access to toilets.

So what is your solution to our "management issue"?

How would you manage safeguarding then in a school of 1300 kids, with several unattended toilets ? Genuinely asking not being facetious. If all toilets are unlocked and kids allowed to go in whenever they like, how do you monitor the goings on and safeguard every child? I am genuinely open to suggestions and I have had many a meeting at my school about this, nothing ever seems to work that pleases everyone

Also laughing at the UK state system being described as ‘extreme’ and ‘draconian’ on this thread.. today I had a lovely girl join us from Ghana. I asked her how she found school (our school has a rep for being stricter than some other local high schools) she said she was amazed how nice the teachers were and how you can talk on the corridors between lessons 😂 she also said she heard a boy swear and was absolutely shocked 🙈😂

Not a teacher but I do think it’s incredibly unreasonable to deny a year 7 to go to the toilet on their first day. They’re still only little.

They're 11. They're not babies.

That simply isn't true.

My dp works in the NHS in a clean room environment, if he wants to go to the toilet her first needs to find cover as the department can't be left without a supervisor, change his shoes and scrubs, bin his PPE then he can go and then he has to changes, scrub back in etc.
His staff's toilet breaks are also monitored and staff have been pulled up for taking too long in the toilet and not going their breaks (he doesn't do this but other supervisors do).

There are many jobs I can think of where toilet breaks aren't immediately available. Mostly lone workers where you can't leave your station or caring professions where someone else is reliant on you for care or supervision.

That said I do think every human should have access to a toilet when they need one.

I think we would actually be more interested in your solution to your management issue...since it is, after all, your management issue.

Part of the problem is how our schools are designed in a way that children need to leave class and walk quite far to an unsupervised or remote toilet block. In some other countries schools are designed so that each class room has their own toilet or a few toilets shared between just a few classrooms, so it's very easy to let children go and know who is where, the wouldn't have to roam the corridors or have the opportunity to mess around.

I appreciate we can't just rebuild our schools in this way, but future planning could take account of it.

What about a teachers right to go to the toilet? They can’t just down tools and leave a class. I’ve taught whilst heavily pregnant and through two pregnancies. No dispensation was give to me. If I needed to loo or had morning sickness it was tough.

timewasting going to the toilet is endemic. Yes there are always genuine requests. And as an experienced teacher I can spot these. I don’t say no to toilet requests. But I’ve clear sanctions for the ones I know are at it so those who genuinely need aren’t disadvantaged by us having a blanket ban.

I think you've just found the solution to the breakdown in trust between parents and schools -- open, brazen contempt for their children's most basic needs.

I always have to remind myself that the teachers who post here aren't representative of all teachers. They're just representative of those who are unhappy enough in their work to vent about it on Internet forums.

It's not mine at all. Students are allowed to go to the toilet in lessons but that is monitored. Funnily enough, they really don't need to go as often when they know that.

First of all, dealing with the issues in general (this isn't just school's responsibility but government, parents, other social institutions etc), so let's be honest, kids are being vapes to each other all the time, during and away from school, not just the toliets. Though on that, I think the home and government have the biggest role. More schools should get those vape and smoke detectors (yes funding should be provided), though I already know scholls many years ago having these. They are specific to the toliet it's happening in and alert staff.

The area of the toliet for sinks etc, should either be one in the toliet room (which should just be individual, not cubicles with weak doors) or that area should be completely open. That way hopefully people can hear if any nonsense starts.

Period passes should be automatic, I've know many schools to do this (and in my experience my lovely head of year on her own). She never had a problem once with it, in 3 years when she did it. 1. Girls had to come to her (though she was lovely so nobody minded), you could do this in the morning or lunch etc, and tell her. She'd then write a note in our planners, with our names and the date (so the whole week), and because she gave them to us, obviously you couldn't come more than once a month. Even if this was extended to a few different teachers, it could still work well - if logged on a wider system. She'd also sign it.

The other issues such as bullying, as I said earlier, banning toilet use isn't stopping that problem - just stoping it happening in one place. Bullying still happens when staff are around, and it's symptomatic of a wider issue. Again with knife crime, that's a whole separate issue, about SS, families with no support system until it gets to late, adultifcaiton and systemic racism in society and school safeguarding processes, poor youth offending support etc. But a kid will still pull out a knife and unfortunately we've seen those incidents to teachers as well (perhaps more metal detectors are needed, I know some academies etc which have these).

On vandalism - that's probably the biggest issue which banning toliet use helps (as for the others it just puts a band aid on the problem). I think it comes from respect and sort of pride in your school. School environments have become about conformity, stripping away student identity and anything which relates to them in the curriculum and overly strict policies on things which have no difference to learning. Kids have always hated school yes. But schools right now aren't safe spaces for kids, they don't feel it's mutual respect anymore, they don't feel part of something (I think especially in massive MATs where everything is copied and pasted and teachers can't adapt things to the school population). Why wouldn't they rebel and break school property. This obviously is a hard issue to deal with, and obviously vandalism costs a lot, and that money can't go elsewhere. But I think having open areas of the sink etc and CCTV there can help (not in the actual toliets but anywhere before it). Trying systems like having more toliets in general and where possible next to offices.

I know some schools have like pastoral teams (non-teaching) and have put the toliets there, and because the office is see-through with glass, all the staff (including lots of admin staff etc who can alert SLT duty) can see straight through, to the biggest boys toliet. Again they have done this with as many toliets as possible and the threat of staff seeing has helped. But they haven't had to ban toliet use, the policy is basically unless you really suspect they're up to something let them go (rare these days I know), some kids still have medical cards but staff know and that just happens with a nod or something. It's one at a time, and it's logged if they spend too long.

Is this all perfect, no, but I do think where possible some of this is workable or should be implemented when schools can (with more money etc). Another great idea I saw, was the card system with an electronic strong lock, however would cost a lot and obviously not possible right now. But ideally would be the solution. I was thinking for disabled toliets there's a radar key (for some not all) and most disabled people buy one and it unlocks those specific toliets. A system like that could work and maybe one key per classroom, teacher gives it out and they come back and hand it in. That saves all the long walking to the office - more chances for long bored walks back and seeing a friend and disrupting a lesson. That would require obviously all toliets to be individual and changed, so not a right now solution, more idealistic.

The incident someone said where a girl was jumped, quick question. Were all the kids in the same class? If so why were so many let out at once. If not were they waiting for her? Like they all asked, but how did they know she was going there then - or did they message on phones during lesson? It's much easier to do it on the playground or out of school, in my experience.

In Ghana some schools still use corporal punishment as do many parents. So yes the UK is less strict by that metric. You can't really compare that culture because of how from so young (especially for girls), we're demonised for speaking as we're taught to be seen and not heard. Cultures like that also have strong feelings on age being equivalent not just to respect but deference. For example (my experience), kids often kneel for adults and have to wait for them to touch your back to give permission for you to you get back up.

@MrsHamlet Partly you're right, some rules around it (you're school sounds different to many other on here) does likely stop those who don't actually need it going. However we also have research, particularly from girls, but also boys, to show that more students aren't asking due to embarrassment and shame, they need to go and are holding it in too much (which everyone knows is bad and can cause UTIs or just worse bladders). More kids are also reporting just not drinking throughout the whole school day (more extreme), but more are just drinking a lot less. Many kids as I said in my earlier post with recent research attached from the UK, more girls are skipping all of school when on their period - and of the key reasons they mention, is this as well as other issues (bullying from boys - which is why they don't want to announce it to teachers etc). As we can see from this thread, many girls have leaked on their periods and so I'm sure the fear of this is having a negative effect as well, also contributing to less students asking to go.

Smartphone free schools would solve some many of these issues.

You must have missed my earlier post where I said I let six children go to the toilet during one lesson.

With the exception of sudden urgency I don't get why this has become a thing. When I was at school I don't remember anyone being so desperate to go that we had kids leaving the class right left and centre. The longest lesson was 2 hrs max. I don't think it ever occurred to anyone to even ask. In my 5yrs of high school I left the classroom once and that was because I thought I was going to throw up.

This is just another problem caused by the fact that schools have grown too big, and there aren't enough facilities or staff for the number of children they're trying to cram in. They have to be run like prisons to keep a basic level of control with the staff-student ratio they have. At my DC's school they're strict on toilet use, and can't always use the toilet at break or lunch either because they're so crowded. They have barely enough time to get their lunch (if they want to use the canteen) and have to eat it out of boxes, standing in the playground. The one time my child needed a temporary toilet pass, they said yes and then didn't give it. Nowadays I keep children off even for a hint of stomachache because of this. They've lost the foundations of basic civilised behaviour.

If they restrict toilet use to break and lunch, even though it’s logistically impossible for everyone to use the toilets during that time, then they have essentially made their school an uninhabitable building.

What you said really shows how the breakdown happened, and both sides are responsible. You said “as they feel so strongly about their dc’s rights”. That’s exactly it, parents pushing back harder and harder, often against schools, sometimes unreasonably, and teachers being sarcastic and bitchy in return. Both sides are reacting to each other instead of trying to understand each other and wrok together more, and that’s where the trust has gone. I'm not really talking about what you said, but sort of picking up on a tone about parents pushing so hard against teachers and how teachers have as a result gotten further opposed to them. There's always been that parent, but it used to be a lot less, now it's happening widely between both sides.

Schools do fail kids in lots of ways. SEN provision is often weak, bullying and increasing incidents of racism and misogyny aren’t dealt with properly, there’s little pastoral support, and kids with EBSA or mental health problems are punished rather than helped. At the same time schools come down hard on tiny things, like socks or hair, while not addressing bigger issues. I get that schools are stretched financially, which isn’t their fault, (though some MATs waste money at the top on excessive management roles while the schools in the trust get little for LSAs or textbooks). But many schools also don’t handle things well, staff aren’t trained properly in cultural competence, and teachers themselves often don’t feel supported by SLTs. Teachers are under constant pressure, from SLT, from Ofsted, from parents, and it trickles down into how they deal with kids and parents, as they redirect their anger to them.

Ofsted does play a part. Inspections should make schools want to show their best, so some nerves are natural, and it's unrealistic to want to get rid of inspections completely when scholls should be scrutinised as they have such an important job. However, the stress it causes right now is ridiculous and it needs to be reformed. Two days isn’t enough time, inspectors miss things and make snap judgments, and teachers are left with bad reports for things they actually did but inspectors didn’t see. Inspections should be about helping schools, not just criticising. If inspectors are ex-teachers, then they should be offering advice, and helping schools to problem solve their biggest issues, actually giving concrete things they can do and working with school, not just giving arbitrary judgments (this would also require a more diverse body of inspectors with diverse experiences, so you need a more diverse teaching workforce as well), and they should give praise to schools. I do think some of the new directions are good, like inclusion and attendance being judged separately. If they’re done properly they could push schools to be more thoughtful and responsive, especially about SEN, EBSA, poverty, bullying and marginalised groups like BAME kids, or disabled kids. It may lead to policies that are more than zero-tolerance and actually incorporate inclusion throughout the school.

The bigger point though is that teachers are leaving (more aboht burnout, lack of support, low pay etc), fewer people want to go into teaching (which is more about low pay and progression) and funding is poor. That’s on the government and should be recognised, if a school doesn't have enough money for enough LSAs, it's not fair to just say their inclusion is bad without recognised that. But inside schools there’s also a refusal to admit mistakes. SLTs and teachers sometimes deny their part in failings and don’t give kids the support they need.

I know parents who have been treated really badly. One asked for her daughter to be moved from lessons with a boy who had upskirted her and almost took a picture (including one where she sat next to him), and the school refused saying it was a one-off. They ignored her emails, her daughter got more anxious, and she started missing lessons because she was scared and embarrassed about what happened. Schools will probably say in a survey etc that those parents were difficult and made vexatious complaints. when clearly it was the school failing.