Is being a family compatible with lack of freedom?

[bmosca]

For context: My wife (DW) and I have been married for over six years and have two young children — our son (DS) is 3, and our daughter (DD) is 6 months and currently breastfed. DW is on maternity leave and expected to return to work sometime next year. I work full-time as a software developer.

Recently, a friend invited me to play football after work.
It’s been a while since I’ve done any sport or had time for myself, so I accepted right away.
Around midday, I let DW know I’d be playing for 90 minutes after work. Her reaction caught me off guard — she was upset that I hadn’t “asked” her if it was okay for her to look after the kids during that time. I ended up cancelling the game.
Later, DW was emotional and said she feels like she spends the whole day without seeing me, and was hoping we’d go for a walk together with the kids after work. She also reminded me that maternity leave isn’t a holiday — which I do understand.
But I can’t help wondering: isn’t her day less stressful than mine?
She spends her time breastfeeding while watching TV, napping, and bonding with the children. We’re currently staying with her parents, so she doesn’t have to cook or manage household chores.
Meanwhile, I’m working full-time, attending meetings, and mentally drained by the end of the day.
After work, I still help with cooking, cleaning, bedtime routines, bathing, reading stories, calming DD when she’s unsettled, changing nappies, playing with the kids, handling paperwork, mowing the lawn, and washing the car.
The only things I don’t do are laundry and lunch prep.

I genuinely don’t mind taking care of the kids if she wants to meet a friend or take time for herself — I’ve told her that. But I’m struggling to understand why I need explicit permission to do something for myself, especially when I gave her notice well in advance.
If this is how things are, does having young kids mean I can never do anything social or recreational without it being a problem?

It's just good manners to run any plans by your spouse/ partner once there are children involved. I'm not sure you did this based on your post.

This.

When's the last time you spent a day looking after your children on your own?

I remember the relief at going back to a high-pressure job after mat leave...so much easier.

To leave a breastfed 6 month old even for a couple of hours requires planning and time to pump milk. Even if you're starting solids most of the baby's nutrition is still coming from milk.

So at this stage offering to have the kids so she can go out isn't as helpful as it will be when everybody can drink cow's / other milk and eat standard food. She either has to take one child with her or do lots of prep for a short time away.

Looking after kids all day is arguably harder than going to work.

By the time you get back, your dw is desperate to have even 5 minutes respite from having to supervise them every waking second. Its exhausting.

You have the freedom to spontaneously agree to go out withoit checking with her. Does she have that freedom? Then its not equal.

They're both of your kids, even when youre out of the house.

‘Bonding with the children’ 🤣🙈

If it makes you feel any better, me and my partner have 3 children. All three are autistic and have ADHD, they also have cerebral palsy and epilepsy and autoimmune diseases. So do I.

My partner hasn’t played anything consistently for the last 7 years. We are both too exhausted to have a relationship. Our whole life is work, childcare, lose our minds, sleep repeat.

This is a hard stage for your partner, physically and emotionally. Go with it, be there for her. Otherwise resentment will start to breed.

I’m sure when the kids aren’t at such demanding ages you’ll get some of your life back.

please do not say any of the above to her listing everything you do and how draining your life is compared to hers. You really don’t have a clue how hard it is until you’ve done it all day every day for months at a time. I definitely would not use the phrase ‘bonding with the children’ unless you want to be subjected to violence.

1-2 kids is hard enough to raise. Any mum who has more than 2-3 kids must love there genes/looks so much to keep having such large family’s. You chose this vanity project so why complain?

Agree with this wholeheartedly. Perhaps it’s time for the 3 yr old to do a few hours at playgroup so your wife can have a bit of peace. Is she short of adult conversation?

Yeah, you are placing her as default parent there. Neither of you should have to ask for permission, and both are entitled to time for yourselves, but common courtesy in a marriage (especially with small children in the mix) should be to ask whether your plans can be accommodated/clash. I don't think informing her via text at lunchtime counts as "plenty of notice".

She is probably all the more sensitive to your level of "freedom" versus hers at the moment, given she has a breast fed 6 month old that will have felt permanently attached to her for the past half a year. It's lovely and a privilege to be able to do, but don't underestimate the degree of claustrophobia, loss of individual identity and general feeling of being touched out that can come with that.

It's not the 90 minutes that's the problem here, it's the way it was communicated, and probably that her emotional/social needs are not being met. Just talk it through together, and figure out how you can both have personal downtime/socials.

But also, definitely stop with the "my work is harder" shit. You get to take a piss on your own and finish a coffee while it's hot.

I think it was probably that you just accepted it rather than pre planning. When you’re the one at home with the children, you are sometimes waiting for that 5pm (or whenever your partner finishes work) so you can have a few minutes to yourself.

I wouldn’t say your day is “harder” or more stressful.

you can take 5 mins, have a hot coffee, let your mind wonder while in a boring meeting. A sah parent doesn’t really have that option

But I’m struggling to understand why I need explicit permission to do something for myself, especially when I gave her notice well in advance.

You don't need explicit "permission". But you do need to explicitly ask her if she is actually free to mind the children, as she may have other plans.

Just like she would have to explicitly ask you if you are free to mind them.

You cannot just assume she will be free and will have the children - that is treating her as the default parent.

Agree! As a woman (and Mum) I find it absolutely ludicrous that people are trying to make this guy feel bad. He works full time, parents the kids when he gets home and on the weekend etc and offers for his wife to have down time as well! What more do you want?! Making him feel bad for doing something healthy and to have a little bit of ‘me time’ really pisses me off!

There’s always a bit of down time here and there for a coffee and sit down. They nap!

3 year olds don't nap (usually). Not all babies will be put down for a nap either.

Maybe not, but also a 3yr old is able to self entertain for a few moments here and there, it’s ludicrous to think a sah Mum doesn’t ever stop interacting for a moment here and there for the full 10 hours etc

Honestly, with a 3 year old and a 6 month, and living with her parents, I can absolutely believe that OPs gets not one moment to herself.
3 year olds (I have one, my 3rd) are pretty relentless.

If she's breastfeeding she may not have had many opportunities to take time for herself.

We also don't know if this is a common reaction ot what sort of day OP's wife had. Most of the time I'd have been fine if DH sprung this on me. There were definitely days when I was desperate for him to get home and him announcing he was going to be home later than expected would have felt absolutely devastating.

Perhaps she should pay him when he “babysits” for her?!

I feel this has been a very balanced and generous thread considering some of the attitudes of the OP.

You are a man, so basically whatever you say, you'll be attacked by man-hating Mumsnetters, especially if you even hint at the fact that staying home with children is a walk in the park.

I am a mother myself, and I agree that either parent should be able to spend 90 minutes doing an activity on their own, even when young children are involved. Asking in advance and offering a similar break to the other person is fair - but it seems you also offered this.

It would be a good idea for you both to sit down and agree to similar breaks, and how much advance warning is required.

The full 20 hours when I had kids that age. I never slept, they never slept, I never synchronised a nap for longer than 20 minutes, I literally had to shut the 3yo in his room to get the baby to nap which obviously made me feel terrible. If dh sprang on me that he was going to play football instead of give me my single point of downtime for the day I’d divorce him.

I'm not sure we're going to see @bmosca again! But assuming he's still reading, there are quite a few questions unanswered from your OP...

1. When you say "I genuinely don’t mind taking care of the kids if she wants to meet a friend or take time for herself — I’ve told her that." It very much sounds like she's not taken you up on it yet. How many times have you been in sole charge of both your children WITHOUT your parents/in laws on hand for the 2 hours or so she can get out of the house between feeds? If the answer is less than 5, I suggest you start practicing this on a weekly basis. Maybe after breakfast or lunch on a weekend, so she has an opportunity to see a friend for a coffee, go for a walk, drive to a quiet road to put the seat back & sleep in peace etc. From there, as your youngest weans, you can build up to 4-6 hours across a feed/mealtime.
2. You don't mention whether baby will take a bottle, or DW pumps milk. If not, your generous "offer" is broadly meaningless & I hope you know that? She'll be locked in to staying within a feed timing's distance of the house & both she & baby will feel it if she's not back. Do acknowledge this & the limitations it puts on HER freedoms - she's 15 months into not being able to escape from this creature you created (lighthearted, not man-hating!)
3. Evenings are least likely to be the time of day she will be able to get time away from baby for a while yet. It's super typical for them to cluster feed between 5-8pm, maybe even up to 10pm, with potentially less that a 45 minute gap between feeds. You know your child far more than my guesses, how much time between 5-10pm does baby spend feeding? See also 2 & whether your offer is in any way practical in an evening?
4. Are you covering any night wakings at all? If not, start! Particularly in Friday & Saturday nights. Yes she has to do the feed, but you can cover the post feed bit of burping/settling/putting back down, so she can get some higher quality rest at least 2 nights out of 7. If you're trying to get baby to drop any night feeds, you are infinitely better placed to go to settle back to sleep, as you won't smell of maximum distraction milk bar! Equally as baby starts teething, there's nothing you can't do to sort a night waking that she can - other than at feed times if baby won't take a bottle. If you're trying to move towards equity on time to yourselves each week via 1, highly recommend you doing the night setting the night before her day with time alone out of the house - she will be more likely to stick to it as she'll be less knackered AND it comes with the bonus feature of your alone time with you children being on the back of a tiny fraction of the sleep deprivation she's doing it with day in, day out so you get a better insight into the rosy realities of "bonding". (I'm presuming you don't currently deal with night wakings in any way because you don't include them in your extensive list of shared chores - most parents would put that one top of the list if they were doing it!)
5. When you say recently, was it during the lovely weather, or the crappy rainy, howling wind stage? If she's been cooped in the same 4 walls for days with kids AND parents & forecast was a dry evening & she was desperate to finally get out for a walk with some help & conversation with her chosen partner in life & the parenting journey - then you announce at lunchtime that tonight's the night for football freedom - I'm not surprised she'd be a bit dark about it!
6. Particularly if the night before baby woke 5 times not 2. Do you even know?
7. How long is a 90 minute game of football really? Is it +30 minutes office-venue & changing time, +30 minutes travel home, +arbitrary additional amount of time in bar discussing game with colleagues while revelling in freedom night? If you normally get home around 6 & the reality was it would be sometime 9-10 instead, I'd be grumpy with 5 hours notice too! That's certainly not "plenty". See also 2 & 3 about whether her maximum POSSIBLE time away from baby after 15 months might still only be 2-3 hours daytime & 45 minutes evening.

To answer your original question about whether you're still allowed any freedom at all or not - I'd say yes...conditionally! Both my husband and I had evenings and weekend days out when our children were young - alone and together. But not many before DC were 8 months old, and none that I remember sprung with 5 hours notice (and I WOULD remember!!!)

We worked hard on equity with time alone too - not in a chess clock, tit-for-tat way, just in a way that ensured resentment didn't build either way AND he had all the parenting skills ready to go with 6.30pm whingy toddler/ baby poonami while toddler halfway through PVA + glitter project and/or throwing 4 pints of milk on the kitchen floor because they wanted to pour their own drink /2 hours crying that they want Mummy & you don't read the book right, etc. etc.

And mine would take a bottle of expressed milk, which makes aaaaaall the difference in the world to equal alone time & sharing night feeds at 6 months old. I'm roundly assuming from your chosen wording that yours doesn't?

If you think your day is stressful compared to having your entire endocrine & muscular system hijacked for 15 months and getting out of bed 2-8 times a night with no respite and a receiving a hollow offer of getting 4 hours to yourself while being told with 5 hours notice that the only opportunity to talk to another sane adult that day is being withdrawm.....you might want to review that assumption!

It's a tough phase to get through. It's a whole bunch easier if you keep pulling in the same direction on the same team.

Your ability to move out of the parents' house into a family home, rather than 2 separate rentals and having to do ALL the childcare alone, relentlessly, every other weekend for the next 17 years depends on it!

PS for bonus points, notice when laundry needs doing & figure out how to do it well.

I think a few PPS have covered it. Looking after children all day can be “easier” than working - but it can be dull and draining - which makes it hard.

I say this as someone who was a working parent for a number of years. And I’ve just recently become a mum again.

Being at home (as in with parents) is definitely easier, but when a baby is so new you have hormones everywhere, you might not even want to do much, but then at the same time you want to get involved in the real world. It’s a confusing time.

I don’t think that your Dw should have reacted like that. But the fact that she did - highlights that maybe you both need to spend some time together, or maybe you can insist that she takes a few hours out of the day to do something nice for herself.

Ive Experienced a very great mat leave where I was active, loved watching tv whilst breastfeeding and enjoyed all of the baby friendly things society had to offer such as baby cinema.

But I have also experienced a horrible mat leave - despite being at home and having friends around I was so miserable. Baby wasn’t latching. I had PND and I felt as if the world was passing me by - and I hated that my partner could just walk around freely whilst I was suffering, but couldn’t admit it.

Yes - 2 extremes - but it just shows that you can’t assume.

But things do get easier - family time does become nicer when the kids grow up. And if both you and your wife keep talking and communicating you can experience freedom.

I think this was a wind up post and they are never coming back.
The level of female response says it all depressingly.
So many women have been in that situation. The assumption, the deeply wrong assumption that it's easy, when it's actually hard and lonely for most women. The desperation at the end of the day for respite. That phone call ....I'm going to be back late...knowing now it will be 40 hours without a break instead of 20. I am glad I didn't know when I had kids as I'd never have done it to myself.

I remember that phase when mine were a baby and a toddler. It made me absolutely furious at all the idiots people that had told me about second babies "just fitting in".

Surely a troll post?

yes, it’s courtesy to ask. If it was someone other than your wife expecting you home / watching the kids, would you check it was ok to come home later or just announce it as you’ve done to your wife?

why for her is it bonding with kids (lovely and relaxing) but for you it’s bedtime bathing stories calming nappies playing? She does ALL those things in the day surely? Plus the laundry and lunch and prob constantly has hands on her too.

your terminology is worrying. You “help with” - that means you see her as the lead on these things when after eg 6pm it should be shared. Her work day should end when yours ends. You call it “taking care of the kids” like you’re a baby sitter.

It’s not easy day in day out and I remember being desperate for that moment my husband came home. You tried to take that away from her without even a conversation.

Imagine if she did the same? At lunchtime she called you and said she was going out at 5pm but you were super mentally drained and needed her support? Wouldn’t a conversation have been better?

You both need permission (i would personally call it agreement) if it affects the other person when your kids are this young and demanding.

time for a perspective shift