To think that not toilet training your child is seriously irresponsible?

[SnugShaker]

I keep seeing stories about kids starting school still in nappies and I just don’t understand how that happens. Barring medical or developmental issues, surely toilet training is a basic part of parenting?

I get that every child is different but isn’t it neglectful to send a child into the world without such a fundamental skill? Interested to hear different perspectives, am I being too harsh or is this genuinely a problem?

He was 3 and a half

I think having a big brother who he copied with EVERYTHING helped

My son still struggles with the wiping part (he’s 6 and autistic)

It’s just too easy to keep putting it off, when disposable nappies and pull ups are available everywhere. People say ‘Oh, s/he isn’t ready,’ about a child of 3 1/2, presumably because the child doesn’t cooperate straight away. For most parents, it takes at least some patience and perseverance.

You never heard of anyone saying a non SN child ‘wasn’t ready’ at over 3, when
terry nappies needed to be washed and dried every day.

My son came under those statistics. As well as SEN kids, you get kids like mine who are toilet trained but get antibiotic diarrhea; require antibiotics 10x or more annually; and thus have the occasional accident during the 10 day course - which they're more than capable of dealing with themselves, but were wearing pull ups (and had a bag of spares, wipes etc) because the parent knows of the risk!! He finally had his tonsillectomy this year so hopefully no more regular antibiotics - one time in year 1 he got sent home for 48 hours because a teacher HEARD him on the toilet (no accidents) and despite his medical records and them giving his 4x daily antibiotics, weren't convinced he wasn't d&v contagious...

People seem so quick to assume it's lazy parenting but it's not always.

But that’s where communicating with parents comes into it. Parents who are trying and finding it hard are different to the parents who don’t see the issue and won’t engage.

Can I ask your advice in this case?

DS (3y 3m) will happily wee on the toilet when asked. However if he wets or soils himself he is distraught and won’t put pants on for weeks.

What should I do as a working mum?

Thanks

That’s so frustrating for you with that teacher.
Again, this is understandable and not the same as parents not toilet training.

Does he have any developmental delay?

Our almost 9 year old isn’t doing any of it yet. I don’t think these posts refer to our kids. Thankfully.

Oh yes im not taking it personally! I was just wondering if her child (also autistic) struggled with this in primary school years and if so, was going to ask for tips if she had any.
And yes, my son does have developmental delay id say (speech delay and comprehension)

Lots do, haven't you read the news

@sparrowhawkhere Thanks :) He missed so much school in reception it was just ridiculous.

I only know of 2 in my son's class in pull ups (visible over top of boy shorts in the park), 1 with considerable SEN, and 1 who recently had SA revealed. Honestly, other behavioural challenges and SEN seem a much bigger problem for teachers at our school/year in terms of disruption (going into year 2).

I don't know anyone who 'can't be bothered' to train their child, but for some, it is more difficult. We've just started to conquer 3 years of constipation/withholding with our daughter (3.5) with adult laxatives. Medical help is hard to come by, and even with all the education and tips and meds in the world, it's a hard cycle to break. It's like people who have 'easy' first babies and are then shocked by a complicated/colic/allergy baby, that lack of experience limits awareness.

@TheTwitcher11 Would your son feel comfortable getting flushable wipes from his bag before going to the toilet, or going back for them after? Makes it easier to do a better job and avoid soreness when they're little.

I think modern nappies don't help. They hold the wet in and the child doesn't always get the same sensations so don't feel the discomfort which leads to them wanting to be dry.

I am also surprised to hear of settings insisting a child has to be dry to start. When I was last in early years that was a definite no no because it could be seen as discrimination and we weren't allowed to discriminate against a child because they were on nappies.

So many threads like this lately.

Yes allowing your child to start school in nappies for the sole reason that you couldn’t be bothered to toilet train them is lazy and unfair on the teachers. But how can you know that’s what’s happening? Are you privy to the circumstances and motives of every parent at the school gates?

I didn’t train either of mine until they were about 3.5. They weren’t ready. I know this to be the case because I tried when they were younger and it was traumatic and unsuccessful. I received loads of judgement on here about it and some quieter judgement IRL I suspect. They were considered ‘late’ but when they were ready it clicked within a couple of days and I maintain that it was the best way to do it for me and my dc. If others want to try earlier and have the process take longer that’s up to them. Or maybe their kids will be ready younger. This is the point…we are all different, all kids are different. Even in the absence of additional needs there are genuine reasons why some kids are potty trained later.

But sure let’s assume it’s all down to feckless, stupid, lazy parenting. How original.

Don't worry. Hell get there. Give yourselves and him a break from it, try again in a couple of of months

It will click.

There are so many reasons why this might happen though.

If we think about the fact that domestic abuse affects 1 in 4 women and 56%of children growing up in dv homes will be directly abused by the abuser and part of the abuse is often undermining a mothers care or role with her children, that alone could explain a significant percentage of children potty training later than expected. Then you add into that SEN which is often diagnosed much later than potty training is expected to be completed by. Many kids with sen fly under the radar even into adult hood. You may have parents with vulnerabilities themselves like learning difficulties or who never received appropriate care from their own families and genuinely don't feel equipped for it in that respect. Plus all children entering school/ nursery for the first time are undergoing massive change.

There's also a big difference in what people perceive as "potty trained" eg dry always/ dry 90%of the time but with occasional accidents/ dry at night as well as during the day etc. Sometimes it can also be due to hormonal factors.

Obviously some parents are neglectful in that respect, we know this. But I would imagine those instances are quite rare and usually would be existing in the context of other issues.

I think the articles/stats used in the articles are a bit misleading. They refer to frequency of accidents for a start, when that doesn't tell you much about how hard parents have tried to potty train. My memories of reception are obviously fuzzy but I remember children having toilet accidents and it not being treated as a big deal, it was just a normal thing.

When I last looked into this I found quite a few articles around the mid to late 00s about a change which occurred then to make school compulsory from the September after children turned 4, rather than the term which began before they turned 5. The reports pointed out that children would be starting school sometimes aged 4 years 1 day, whereas the previous rule meant the youngest reception aged children were 4 and a half years old. Six months is a huge chunk of their lives at that age, and most children are much more reliable with the toilet by 4.5 than they are at just turned 4, especially if they were on the later end for potty training. I wasn't actually aware of this change and I wonder how many people lamenting the non-readiness of children for school are.

Plus the fact there are a lot more children with SEND going into mainstream schools now.

For sure there are children who have parents who don't bother about their development or milestones, but that has always happened. The articles make it sound like that's every other parent and that's just not the case.

I was of the same opinion, having successful potty trained 2 DDs. With my DS, what a slog. He is possibly on the spectrum, awaiting referral, and toilet training has been miserable. Started at 2.5 hes just turned 4 and he still has the odd accident. It just doesnt come naturally the way it did with the other two.

So, its not as clear cut as parental laziness.

I think we are told to wait for signs they are ready, but some kids just don't show signs.

I will add DS is a lovely little boy but he is a complete pudding who wants everything done for him which is so different to the independence and drive of the DDs who WANTED to use the potty and toilet. Poor DS has no desire.

I think parents put too much pressure on their children because society judges them.

Eventually children become adults who can toilet appropriately.🤷‍♀️

I’m absolutely not saying that every late-trained child is the result of lazy parenting, hence why I said “barring medical or developmental issues” and that “every child is different.” I’m well aware that some kids just aren’t ready at the typical age and of course that needs to be respected.

But it’s also true that there’s a noticeable rise in children starting school without being toilet trained and some teachers have publicly expressed concern that in at least some of those cases, it isn’t about readiness, it’s about lack of effort or follow-through at home. That’s what I’m questioning. Not individual families doing their best but the broader trend and whether we’ve normalised avoiding this milestone too easily. If your child wasn’t ready until 3.5 and then cracked it quickly, that sounds like you knew your child well and responded accordingly, which is great parenting in my book.

Currently in the throes of potty training DD who has just turned 2 - she had been showing signs for a few weeks. This weekend we plan to move to knickers and hope it goes well. Nursery have been very supportive of us and have given excellent tips & advice to help. There is no push from their side to have her trained just simply following her cues.

night time is a waaaaaaaaaaay off!

I’ve tried previously but I will try again now actually as he’s due to return to school, might be lucky this time! (it’s all about timing isn’t it lol)

@TheTwitcher11 Absolutely! Good luck!

They do 'just get it' [old person alert] [no SEN experience] eventually. Bladder and bowel control involves a fairly complicated signalling chain of proteins and hormones. Developing little bodies set these up at different stages, dependent on genetics as much as anything else. They may often develop in separate steps, rather than all at once, so some kids, for example, know they need to pee but don't yet release the proteins which prompt the co-ordinated squeeze/relax actions on command.

In the vast majority of children this will happen as genetically programmed, some time between the ages of two and five. It's wise to do the training anyway, so your kid already knows what to do when their body catches on. I don't know what's advised nowadays, but we always used to take the child to the potty or toilet before going out, before bed and after meals, etc. If nothing happens within a couple of minutes it's no big deal, but we're trying to set up a learned response to signals we know they will get, even though the kid doesn't yet know what we're on about 😏

I always used to respond immediately to "I need to wee" even if that meant holding the poor little bugger over a street drain. I think recognition of the need should never be thwarted - again, because we want the correct signalling to feel natural even if the hold/release thing isn't working yet.

I never encountered a child who refused to come out of nappies, though I've often heard about it since. I wonder if the PP may have a point about terry nappies: they are nothing like as comfortable or comforting as a nice, snug pair of padded pants! That's just me wondering, though; it must have happened to some kids. The main thing is to ensure there is no sense of shame or anxiety while waiting for the mysteries of interoception to work their magic.

I don't know about this because I've had 3 kids... the first from the age of two we tried to potty train him and it was a nightmare. We used the books the stickers all the advice you read online. He started nursery at 3 in nappies. After a couple of days he just became dry day and night.. he just seemed to decide to do it.

My middle we did not even attempt to potty train at 2. Then at 2.5 she started showing an interest and it literally took a week and she was dry day and night. She started nursery at 3 able to use the toilet.

And again my 3rd no real potty training, she just decided to do it at about 2.5.

So I tend to think kids just do it when they want to (NT kids) and the endless effort some parents put into early potty training is just a waste of effort.