To think single mothers are judged harshly because deep down society still thinks kids need fathers more than mothers admit?

[ByFirmTealViewer]

The way single mums get talked about is brutal. AIBU to think it’s because people still believe kids fundamentally need fathers, even if no one says it out loud?

Well I think it’s that single parents need benefits to get by. If they earn well and the other parent pays and is doing their share. It’s fine.
But this is because whenever there is a debate about children in poverty it is always a single mother who is wheeled out and I want to yell at the screen where’s thefffff Father where’s the DGPs, siblings??

I'm a single parent, daughter of a single parent who was the daughter of a single parent. My dc are different ethnicities, so people think I'm a slag before they find out I'm a lesbian. I'm so used to being patronised and judged by people who have no idea, I can't tell you. But that's OK, I'm not after your approval.

While I agree with the "staying together for the kids" is usually myopic I do think that women don't just do it because they are keen to not lose the man (likely not a gem lets face it if she's saying that) but because she knows he would join the queue of men happily moving on to impregnate another woman and not paying child support or caring for their kids if he were given free reign on the streets again.

Ah, I was wondering when the benefit shaming would start on the thread!

My initial premise was about an inability to make relationships stick, or to form lasting relationships. I totally agree, especially in this day and age, that finding the right person to do that with takes luck. I'd say approximately 30% of my friends (we're late 40s/early 50s, male and female) haven't ever found that luck. Some of them have had a series of 6 month-2 year relationships, but many many of them just never got past the first few dates because the men were just awful/women were too aggressive (tbf I live in a crazy city for dating, it's shark-infested). The latter category is not who I'm talking about, and within the former category who knows what the real reasons are. But when you're talking about a woman my age onto her second or third marriage/partnership and children are involved sometimes with different men: yes, I judge the inability to make a relationship stick/do the necessary to make that relationship work. With children in the picture it's also dragging vulnerable kids into adult mess that they aren't and shouldn't be equipped to deal with.

what does eveyone think happens to the fathers of children of single mums? We don't dissolve them in baths of acid - that is illegal and messy.

Unless they have sadly died, they are all out there in the world, still fathers. Its just many of them choose not to parent their DC, or parent badly, or spend more time rubbishing/harrassing/abusing/undermining/short changing the mother of their DC than parenting their DC. And some of them do a great job & continue to parent their kids while living elsewhere. and just like Mums, many Dads are mediocre too.

@jonthebatiste

I hope not! There's so, so much benefit for an individual and also for other people in their lives by they children or step-children or grandchildren or close siblings, in long-lasting relationships. Romance doesn't last long at all, but reliability and trust and respect are deep values which are worth a lot in my book. Especially when we're old and have been through things

I guess it’s partly down to temperament and what you value more on the stability vs fulfilment axis. Some people prioritise familiarity and habit above all, others are more focused on excitement, mental stimulation etc.

Some relationships really do have natural longevity and friendships are gold. But I don’t really understand the logic of a lifelong commitment to someone (outside of the obligation to children). It seems unnecessarily self-limiting.

In a best case scenario a relationship will grow and evolve with the couple but in my experience most don’t and beyond a certain point they just become baggage which holds people back.

Again, if you take children out of the equation altogether I’m not sure the upside outweighs the limitations. But thats a personal choice.

Women and men need to choose their partners carefully 💁. Why enter into a partnership where you can imagine the person disrespecting you, being untrustworthy? Realistically most of us learn real compromise on the job, but with core values of decency, honestly, trustworthiness, respectfulness - it's not a hard task. Of course nobody enters into a marriage thinking they're going to be cheated on, abused, disrespected. But everyone should enter into marriage having asked themselves: how am I sure that this person won't abuse me, won't treat me badly, won't cheat on me? Most people in the world are decent and don't do these things. Of those who do, as many ought to be women as men realistically. But we all need to take responsibility for ourselves.

There are lots and lots and lots of feckless people in the world. Some people don't learn decency until they're into their third or fourth decade. Some are that way by the time they're 25. We have to take responsibility for our choices (marry in haste, repent at leisure) because of all the things in your second paragraph. Absent children, well we can all please ourselves, really.

My mum admits she holds women to much much higher standard than men. To her, as long as a man doesn't beat his Mrs he's brilliant. And he shouldn't need to do much parenting if he's employed. She expects women to do all the life admin, all the childcare, all the housework and also have a job?!

Kids do need decent fathers.

@jonthebatiste

But when you're talking about a woman my age onto her second or third marriage/partnership and children are involved sometimes with different men: yes, I judge the inability to make a relationship stick/do the necessary to make that relationship work. With children in the picture it's also dragging vulnerable kids into adult mess that they aren't and shouldn't be equipped to deal with.

I completely agree with this. But in a scenario like this surely the solution is for the resident parent to raise the children solo?

Hence my original point that many families are better off headed by a single parent mother rather than with a revolving door of stepfathers.

Well, if we’re in the business of making sweeping generalisations, we could argue that the opposite is true. Women aren’t happy without men and the resources they provide. They depend upon men to build and maintain the world around them, do all the dirty, physically demanding jobs, keep the infrastructure going, earn the money (generally speaking) to feed them and clothe them and to support the children that women want.

Your misandry is really showing 😂

It's misogyny.
Our society looks down on single mothers and gives absent fathers a free pass.
I know plenty of people were waiting for me to fuck up raising my DDs on my own. Some shit talked behind my back but are strangely silent now my kids are grown into wonderful young women.
It's misogyny.

@VaseofViolets

Women aren’t happy without men and the resources they provide. They depend upon men to build and maintain the world around them, do all the dirty, physically demanding jobs, keep the infrastructure going, earn the money (generally speaking) to feed them and clothe them and to support the children that women want.

Plenty of women are able to thrive without men’s “resources”. We provide our own resources.

Statistics are about likelihood though, and I say this as someone who has ended up single parenting. You can always find exceptions to the statistical norm (the chain smoker who lives to a ripe old age in rude good health or whatever), but that doesn't mean the statistical norm isn't real.
I'm fine with acknowledging that my two would be better off (emotionally & very definitely financially) with a good involved father in the home. But it is what it is.

As for not judging absent fathers, I judge men who aren't involved with / don't take responsibility for their children massively. I think the state should be much more aggressive in shaking money out of them & they should bear any stigma of benefits dependence too.

This. All day long.

Kids do need fathers, but that should not be a reason to be disparaging about single mothers.

And plenty don’t. They depend on the state’s largesse - other people’s financial resources.

I’ve posted about this at length in this thread and won’t be repeating.

In short, it really is not as simple as choosing the ‘right’ partner. Obviously people do not enter into relationships knowing that the person will turn out to be an absent father / abusive / a cheat / etc. It is very condescending and ignorant to lecture women on their ‘poor choices’.

Edited to add: I find your posts bizarre tbh. No one can be SURE of someone else’s future behaviour. There is no crystal ball.

A million percent this

Thinking more about this and IME women are actually the worst offenders when it comes to letting worthless fathers off the hook. How often does a woman get together with a man, find out that he has children somewhere he doesn't support and isn't involved with, and just accepts whatever flimsy excuse he comes out with for it (pretty much always some variation on "my ex is pyscho"?). But then if he is involved with and supporting his children, his current partner will quite often resent it (see 9 million mumsnet threads on this subject).

where are my manly resources @VaseofViolets ?

I tend to hear very negative things being said about men who leave their kids compared to single mums raising their kids. Must depend who you associate with or the sort of people you pay attention to.

Then why isn’t the judgement directed at the absent fathers?

But it is logical that children with a single parent supporting them are more likely than children with two parents together are going to experience poverty. And require benefits to get by. A father who is separated or divorced won't necessarily be able to provide - illness, disability, redundancy....even if they want to. Grandparents and siblings may live at an unworkable distance.

And yet thousands of together families claim benefits. Do you think the same about them?