To think single mothers are judged harshly because deep down society still thinks kids need fathers more than mothers admit?

[ByFirmTealViewer]

The way single mums get talked about is brutal. AIBU to think it’s because people still believe kids fundamentally need fathers, even if no one says it out loud?

That does not explain why single mothers are judged more harshly than single dads.

I'm not sure I agree with you OP, I don't hear anyone speaking harshly about single mothers.

I also don't agree that someone saying children are better off with a father present is somehow a sleight on single mothers. Its just a statement of how things could have been better. Children ARE better off with two parents who are in a relationship, in a home they own, where parents are educated and good earners, good physical and mental health, neurotypical, able bodied, no allergies or medical conditions, strong social skills, good at sports, good looking and academically bright. That's the optimum environment to be a child. When some of the boxes aren't ticked that's ok too, it's normal and just the way life goes.

It’s misogyny but I also think it’s because single mothers terrify men as it confirms an innate fear in men that actually women are perfectly happy without them and they are not needed.

I'm not sure I really totally agree with your premise.

Some single mothers are looked down on, but others not really. I think in practice most people tend to differentiate between those they see as essentially the victims of bad luck or circumstance, and mums where they seem to have multiple kids with various fathers none of whom are around. I find when someone makes a general negative comment, if you press them, they are almost always actually talking about the second group, not their neighbour whose twat husband left for the secretary, or families where the kids spend time with both parents and are fed and organised and so on.

People don't think much of the fathers that have kids with multiple women they aren't really involved with either. It's harder to spot them, though.

I think most people think fathers are important. With people who say fathers aren't important however, they may be in a bit of a social bubble where most of those around them think that way.

I think everybody thinks kids need fathers, because they do. The thing is a lot of kids don’t need the fathers they’ve actually been saddled with. I often think people could choose more wisely. Some people know they’re with a dickhead but plough on regardless , others get blindsided when their partner leaves or does a 360 or turns into a different person . A lot of women find themselves single mothers at some point , me included. It’s generally not their original plan! As a society we do tend to vilify the parent who stayed and brought the kids up but give a pass to the one who fucked off and abandoned their responsibilities. It’s quite odd really.

How do you know which a man is when you’re in the situation?

I never would have thought my husband would have raped me. But there we were.

I judge the men who leave/don't pay far more than single mothers.

But some people have unbelievably bad judgement, its unbelievable. They have four kids when they can barely afford one, choose useless partners time and time again rather than just stay single.

A girl i was at school with had unplanned pregnancy after unplanned pregnancy, a series of feckless partners, none of whom last more than 2 years. It was just bad choice after bad choice, friends warned her every time

Surely children are the only reason for staying in long term relationships?

I hope not! There's so, so much benefit for an individual and also for other people in their lives by they children or step-children or grandchildren or close siblings, in long-lasting relationships. Romance doesn't last long at all, but reliability and trust and respect are deep values which are worth a lot in my book. Especially when we're old and have been through things.

why would you think "there must be something wrong" with someone for not being able to have long-lasting relationships?

If a person wants a long-lasting relationship (or two or three in a long life), absent factors such as abuse, an inability to do the things necessary to get what you want would indicate the problem lies with that person. Either for consistently choosing the wrong people (people who don't want the same thing); or for not being able to do the necessary to get the thing. If a person doesn't seek long-term relationships in the first place, all is fine unless children are involved. I agree with you: children need stability.

Beyond a lifespan of about five to ten years I think very few couples would naturally stay together if it weren't for children or finances.

Personally, I find this is such a sad conclusion for an adult to have reached. Quite male, too!

Surely deciding something no longer serves you and allowing yourself to move forwards is healthier than doggedly soldiering on with something just to demonstrate you can have a long relationship?

I don't subscribe to these individualistic and transactional views. They aren't the path to fulfillment and deep happiness imo. I do many things that don't serve me out of duty and respect (such as raising children and helping my aging neighbours). Long relationships almost always have periods of dogged soldiering on: when your partner is sick, when a couple falls on hard times, when tragic bereavement befalls them. You don't stick around "just to demonstrate you can have a long relationship" - who cares? You stick around out of love, duty, honour, self-respect and respect for your partner. Those are all good and decent values in my book. Far, far more meaningful and rewarding than self-serving attitudes which only result in loneliness, ultimately.

To repeat:

”I think a woman needs to realise that if a man does not want to wear condoms she has more choices than simply shrugging and having unprotected sex.”

and

”I don’t understand why your starting position is to give up your agency”.

I am not sure the stigma came from people frowning on single mothers being on benefits, and living in social housing?

I researched my family back to the 1500s, and saw there were single mothers in every generation, but there were no benefits or social housing in those days. The parish records used to say:

“Elizabeth illegitimate daughter of Mary Smith”

or even worse:

“Hannah bastard daughter of Anne Jones”

In a period, when women and children were generally recorded as appendages to their male relatives, the disapproval leaps off the page, yet in small villages everyone probably had a good idea who the father was? No mention of them usually.

Finding a compatible partner is indeed about luck. You can make your own luck to a large extent, but not always. Embarking on what you think/hope is a relationship with someone who you don't think is compatible is a fool's game, and that's what I judge.

Yes sometimes relationships do come to a natural end. Nothing wrong with that at all if there is nobody else to consider. If there are children, that's simply not a good enough reason to upend a stable home imo. Parents should just live with the boredom until the children are mature enough to understand that the family unit rupturing isn't about them but about two individuals who have outgrown each other (the children could be tweens, they could be in their 20s - depends on the children).

I think you were replying to me there.
It isn't always about agency. Men start off wearing condoms and remove half way. Men pretend they are wearing them. Men hold you down even if you say no.

I'm not sure how you missed this if you are a woman. Every woman I know has had this at some point.

Either for consistently choosing the wrong people (people who don't want the same thing); or for not being able to do the necessary to get the thing.

What does that even mean? And why is soldiering on in a poor quality relationship (absent kids) seen as superior to exiting a relationship that has reached it’s natural end?

Ithink children do ideally need a father. I’m divorced but have a very child centrered shared parenting arrangement so I don’t think they are missing out.

Single mum here although I don't really think of myself with that label.

"Couple" seems to be the default in society and women who operate outside of this are treated or thought of badly - single mums for sure but also women who don't have children, "spinsters" <shudder> and other women who detemine to live life without a man, or who aren't actively looking for a man.

My objection of "single mum" is the single bit - why should my place in the world be always seen through the prism of my "relationship status". I reject this entirely. Totally pisses me off, but I get that its "just the way things are".

So my vote goes with the first reply - its misogyny

I know who I was responding to.

As for stealthing - I am aware it exists. It’s sexual assault and I said quite clearly I was not talking about sexual assault.

@JuliaSaysHi I don't want to post something patronising like "obviously I don't mean someone in your position" because I have no right to be so disrespectful and you don't need the "approval" of random internet strangers. But, despite my opinions and the contents of my posts, I genuinely ( perhaps naively) don't intend to cause individual women offence with those statements.

I am sorry if I made you feel attacked.

It's just plain old misogyny.
Just look at how single dads are fawned over...

@dailygrowlabsolutely. I'm a single mum of 3 (not by choice though that shouldn't be relevant) and the number of times I've had people telling me about a single dad they know. It's as if he's some kind of superhuman hero. He looks after the kids all the time, washes their clothes, sorts out their school stuff, makes doctor or dentist appointments and manages to work! Amazing. The poor thing even has to cook dinner after a hard day bless him. I don't actually mean to play down the efforts of single dads, it's more that single mums are just expected to pick up all this and more and still told they are lazy, a bad role model, not working hard enough etc.

I mean: discuss openly, compromise, negotiate, take a long-term view, keep the big picture front and foremost, show humility but maintain self-respect, support the other and expect support in return, change with and around the other person while communicating you expect the same in return. And all the other things required to maintain a long relationship with a partner. It's hard, at times really hard. All relationships go through phases, ups and downs.

Why do you assume people who have not had / have not found long term partnership are unable to do this?

Finding somebody to do that with (and who wishes to do that with you) takes a bit of upfront luck.
If somebody never has that luck why does that mean something is wrong with them?

@RobinEllacotStrikethis too. People are obsessed with why I'm not dating and why I haven't "met someone" yet. I don't have time and I like the life that I have built with my kids too much to have it screwed up again by a man. The kids don't deserve that and nor do I!

Misogyny. If it was beause dads are more important, then mothers who don't have full custody would not be demonised. A dad who sees kids every fortnite is a great, involved parent. But mother who does the same?

Boris Johnson’s face has just come swimming, unbidden, into my mind’s eye.

There were no consequences for him; he held the highest office in the land. Diane Abbott received a harder time for drinking a tinnie on a train.

These things take BOTH people to do, in a two-way partnership dynamic. Obviously when relationships irretrievably break down, it is these things which are no longer possible. It only takes a lack of respect / compromise/ trust /etc from one person to cause relationship dysfunction.

It is very damaging for children to witness their parents to be in an unhappy relationship. Often these parents will say that their children don’t notice, but I guarantee they do. Children pick up on tensions, silences, lack of affection. They will often internalise this and believe this is normal, effecting the relationships they will go on to have themselves. It is far healthier for all involved to end the relationship, demonstrating to children that they don’t need to settle for unhappiness. Staying together ‘for the kids’ is a cop out.