Grandson living with me and I'm struggling

[AngelicAbout]

Posting here for traffic

My son briefly dated a woman for a few months and ended up having grandson (16, 17 at the end of the month). His mum was his resident parent until he was about 11, there's a long backstory but she chose a man over him/her other children (son isn't the father of his siblings). He also came out around this time and his mum tried to guilt trip him. My son had full custody of him from then. He hasn't seen his mum in year's but she does send the occasional message although I don't think he replies to her most the time.

2 years ago my son moved grandson up here with him, son is autistic and has mental health issues himself and was quite lonely down in their previous area and was struggling with grandson and his school refusal at his old school anyway.

They moved here summer 2023, they were living with myself and my husband and grandson started Y10 at his new school that September. From the off we had issues with him refusing to go, he hated it, had no friends etc and was angry at my son for moving him away from his friends. Son promised he could move back down south for him to start college in their old area (I'm not sure why he said this as I don't think this was the plan!

After a few months we had the education welfare team out many times, he was very behind at school and they weren't sure he’d catch up. They figured out he was working at a year 8 level, no sen although I do think he is autistic like my son but he gets defensive and says he isn't. We got him a tutor over zoom and he was still on the school roll. It was 2 hours a day and the plan was to continue with the tutor but slowly work up to him being in full time school. This never happened, he went in for a few hours but he started refusing again and also refused to engage with the tutor. He would lie and say it had been cancelled etc.
This year he was due to sit his GCSEs but that didn't happen, he's agreed to go to college and sit them but that doesn't look likely. He's fixated on what my son said 2 years ago about moving back down south (we’re in Manchester) for college. Anyway that's the education aspect. My son ended up moving out and grandson stayed living here.

Grandsons behaviour is awful, he barely leaves his room, his sleep schedule is all over the place, he sleeps all day and is awake all night playing games and on discord calls to people in America etc. He self harms and has threatened suicide but I don't know if he's serious or trying to be manipulative, drinks/smokes weed. He likes cooking but doesn't tidy up after himself. He shouts at me for simple things such as putting a t-shirt of his in the dryer, putting his clothes away in his drawer to try and be helpful. Calls me an old bitch and other things. He doesn't eat during the day he cooks at night. Manipulated my son into giving him money for a new PC as he broke his previous one by spilling juice on it. He then got a virus on the new PC within a few days. Last Christmas he lied to my son about me taking his Christmas money
My son might be evicted so will more than likely move back in and he's not happy at all, that's when he threatened suicide (again), told me I shouldn't give him money when he asks (it's not up to grandson though!), said his dad ignores him and only messages when he wants something which isn't true he tries to make an effort but grandson ignores his messages. He does message grandson if I haven't replied to ask if I'm awake/ask him to get me to call him etc but he does message other times too.

Sorry this post is so long. I've tried getting Camhs involved but the wait list is long and probably will turn 18 before we get an appointment and I doubt he'd engage anyway. School tried to get him to talk to the school counsellor but wouldn't

If anyone has questions I'll answer and there's things I've not included as I don't want to make it too long

That does sound totally suitable.

He is reacting like a younger child - still holding on to the promise he got from his dad even though his dad is unable to fulfil that. I could weep for him.

What chances are there of him engaging with an EHCP assessment? They go to age 25 and IME are very useful post-16. He'd need to request it/consent to allow you or his dad to deal with it on his behalf.

The reason I suggest EHCP as it should make it easier to access other services. He doesn't need a diagnosis to have an EHCP. Though I guess he'll be reluctant to agree to it.

I'm in 2 minds to say this, but I wonder if it was presented as giving him evidence towards applying for PIP it might motivate him? I hope I don't cause offence, just dealing with a 16 year that struggles to engage is very difficult.

I hope you're able to get some support.

But it is not ok for OP to be abused. She is trying everything, being called an old bitch in her own home while her feckless son ducks responsibility is not ok!

My son hasn't spoken to him about them not moving although he does know, they've just never had a sit down conversation about it. I think my son said it as a throwaway comment with no intention of moving, but he admitted he had hoped he’d have made friends by now and was happy to stay but that obviously isn't the case.

My son works as an engineer for a bus company, I didn't really have issues with him going to school/college. I'm not a kinship carer, the plan was for them to move in here then when my son found a place for them both to move out. But by that time grandson was settled, had his room how he wanted it and had no interest in moving out not even overnight, he's only been to my sons house once or twice and he complained the whole time that he wanted to go home etc

Get him out. Knew you were going to say won’t go to school but quite happy to stay awake all night playing computer games. WIFI off and then get him out to his dads. End of.

But by that time grandson was settled, had his room how he wanted it and had no interest in moving out not even overnight, he's only been to my sons house once or twice and he complained the whole time that he wanted to go home etc

Tough. People move. He has to get used to it.

I'm unsure whether he'd agreed tbh as there isn't anything “wrong” with him (his words). I do think he'd agree if I mentioned PIP but that's incredibly hard to get (my son was refused it) so if he was also refused that'd be another thing he was lied to about is that could make things more difficult in the long run

He's not at risk in your home but you might be. I'm sure that this isn't how you envisaged your retirement.

You need to tell Social Services that you can't cope with his behaviour so you need him to leave. Your son dumping him on you isn't fair.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5060801-does-anyone-know-how-i-can-get-help-filling-in-a-pip-form?utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=app_share lots of useful tips on here.

He smokes weed drinks alcohol and cooks during the night.The combination sounds very dangerous.Great that he cooks and that should be encouraged but you need be safe in your own home.

I do understand it's a delicate situation, I know PIP can be difficult, but my thinking is the EHCP should give extra weight to the application. As in, I wouldn't apply until the EHCP was at draft stage. Though unfortunately a lot of LAs refuse to assess, which are usually successfully appealed against.

It's a real shame that when the Education department got involved, they didn't push forward with an EHCP when they identified he was so behind then.

My eldest is 19 and autistic diagnosed as a toddler. We had many years of him saying he was fine, he didn't need to be able to interact with people as he had no interest. Refused to engage in therapy (he has an EHCP). It's only in the last few months he's had a complete 180 on it and asking for therapy. He's also asked for an ADHD assessment as he believes his sleep issues are linked. I can't take any credit for his turnaround, he's just realised how small his world is, and is no longer happy to live like it.

I hope your grandson will go to the college day, I think if he can stay engaged somewhere, it will help.

He needs to go live with his father.
Tell your son you can't cope with GS anymore and to come pick him up. This is disgusting how you are being treated!

Call social services you've only got a year to do that. Tell them you can't cope. It's either gonna go. He will buck up his ideas with the thought of going into care or he will go into care but then he will be in the system and may get the help he needs.

Harm minimisation is really just that. The concept is basically if he is going to self harm how can he reduce the risks and make it as safe as possible. Things like ensuring he has sterile implements, bandages ect.

I've attached a link about harm minimisation https://www.selfinjurysupport.org.uk/Handlers/Download.ashx?IDMF=2faddea6-fa37-486c-875c-a5b0a23091bd

This on is about creating a safety plan
https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/if-youre-worried-about-someone-else/supporting-someone-suicidal-thoughts/creating-safety-plan/

You’re being abused and bullied in your own home, OP. Your GS sounds a very angry, probably depressed, young man. He needs more support than you can give. More than that, your kindness and tolerance is probably just enabling him.

He is using you. He has no intention of going to college or doing anything. How could he when he stays awake all night and sleeps all day? He sees you as an easy touch who won’t correct him and who he can bully into compliance.

Ignoring the awful effects on you, in the long run none of this is doing him any good at all - and the longer it goes on, the more entrenched his behaviour will become and the harder it will be for him to change.

This is a case where being ‘cruel’ will actually be being kind. Chuck him out; phone SS and tell them you’ve done so and that he’s homeless and in need of support. To chuck him out, you’ll have to plan the best way to do this. Does he go out long enough for you to get a locksmith to change the locks? If not, surreptitiously take his keys, when he’s out, then the next time he leaves the house don’t let him back in. Write him an email explaining your love for him, your worries, and that you’re doing this for his own good (but more nicely phrased than that).

Under no circumstances let your DS move back in either!

I have every sympathy with you. This sounds exactly like my son, he's now early 20s, finished uni, moved back home, can't keep a job. He sleeps all day and is on his computer all night. He cooks late at night and never washes up, smokes weed, calls me insulting names, looms over me in a threatening way etc We adopted him as an older child, he'd had a horrendous early childhood. The first few years were great, he always had a temper but when he was younger we could handle him. However, he's now 6ft 5ins and very strong and imposing. My dh has become severely disabled due to illness and I'm now the one running the household alone with all the responsibilities. Ds does nothing to help, has no respect for dh and me and doesn't pay a penny towards his keep. He also gets very angry sometimes and bashes things, the wall, doors etc. I've threatened to call the police, I've threatened to throw him out but it's not as easy as people think. We are actually scared of him, he also suffers from deep depressions about his awful early childhood. He should have been given counselling by social services but once we adopted him they washed their hands of him. They didn't actually tell us the full truth of his situation, we'd still have adopted him and we do love him but we could have got him the help he needed earlier. If I throw him out he'll be homeless and I couldn't bear to think of that happening. He also threatens suicide if I try to get tough with him. All I can say is do something about your grandson now, while he is still young, don't end up with an angry, abusive adult living with you like I have.

Thank you for the links everyone, I will show him them especially the harm reduction one. I've taken razors out of his room. Maybe I haven't handled it well in the past as I asked him to show me his arms

He doesn't smoke weed every night but I agree about the cooking and he doesn't clean up after himself. He doesn't cook in the usual way maybe you or I do, he usually puts random things together. When I came down today he'd cooked pasta and weetabix (together, as in weetabix as a pasta sauce?) and made a mess with it, but the random ingredients is why his dad said the food he eats is unsuitable but he does it himself. I've tried getting him to follow recipes etc but he won't so it's a case of leaving him to it. the kitchen being left in a mess but he just wont listen. I spoke to him again earlier and he said he'd just woken up and told me to stop complaining all the time

I tried speaking to the SENDco about how I thought he was autistic but they hadn't seen much of him, he never did a full day at that school. He had the 2 hours a day of tutor via zoom and we were trying to build it up so he would end up in full time school but we didn't get past him staying later than lunch until he started refusing again, he had been doing well and even his school said so but everytime he's praised he sort of ruins that. By October/November last year we were all out of options he wasn't seeing the tutor anymore, he hadn't been to school that academic year and it was clear he was going to fail his GCSEs if he sat them and the school were trying to get me to say I was homeschooling him but I WFH so that wouldn't have been possible and he wouldn't have engaged in any work anyway so I refused. The Education welfare visits fizzled out; they would come to check on him but that became a battle too as he refused to come downstairs to speak to them, sometimes they were coming while he was asleep so i’d have to wake him. Just hearing his voice wasn't enough and I do understand why. The worst visit was one of the last ones when he refused to get up and come downstairs, they couldn't leave until they'd seen him which is understandable but he just wouldn't come down. In the end they threatened calling the police if they didn't see him (I think this was more a threat to him rather than me) and that did work but they were here for over half hour for what was meant to be a short visit. It became exhausting rather than helping, they'd talk about fines etc and his dad was fined in the end but grandson didn't care about that, he said it was his own fault

My son came over not that long ago, grandson was only down for 5 minutes before going back to his room. My son asked if he wanted to do something and he automatically said no, then my son mentioned the zoo as he usually goes for his birthday every year and he said he'd done that early in June with his friends so can't until next year (this is also why I think he's autistic) and then went back to his room

I don't think he'd be taken into care at his age would he?

No they are unlikely to take him into care. They are also unlikely to help in any way, as you are safeguarding the child. And if gs won’t engage with health or education experts, why do you think he would engage with social services?

you say you are not a kinship carer but it is exactly what you are. Most kinship carers take responsibility for a family child without a court order or financial recompense.

but you will be unable to register him with GP, education etc without having pr.

i can only suggest, again, contact kinship carers. They can and will help, they can give advice, get you in touch with others. Guide you through possible options etc. they used to be called grandparents plus for a reason as many kinship carers are grandparents. You are not alone in this.

You could be describing my child just a short while ago, including the nocturnal behaviour, weed smoking, virtually non existent education, no friends, aggressive behaviour, self harming, cooking and eating at night, apparently incapable of applying themselves to anything, just wanted to spend their every waking moment doing what they wanted to do and took no responsibility for anything.
In my case, my child felt like I was always getting on their case so they shut down and I was worried sick about their future.

It made for a tense relationship.

Ultimately, they felt I was not on their side, and I suppose I wasn't, because I felt I knew what was good for them. I still believe that, however, this is what I have learnt and I hope some of it will be helpful for you OP.

I decided that for a space of 3 months, I was going to treat DC like they knew what was best for them, even if that meant in my mind I didn't agree. I put my trust back into them to make the right choices for themselves, whatever they may be.
I also decided that I would focus on what was best for me during that time.

When DC went to buy weed, I saved the lecture and told them that was fine so long as they didn't stink the house out with it.
When DC chose not to engage with education, I chose to trust that they knew what was best for them, mainly because I knew that no matter what I said, they weren't going to pay attention anyway.
I still suggested opportunities, but if they refused, I respected their choice without showing I was frustrated with them, easier said than done.
Within days, DC was opening up to me in conversation and I may not have agreed with much of what they liked/wanted/did/thought but I accepted that they were entitled to their own choices and just as they weren't trying to persuade me to like/want/do/think the same, I gave them the same grace. I made it clear that they were in charge of their own choices and so long as their choices didn't affect me, that was their right. I knew I could not make DC see what I considered sense, and tbf they weren't asking for my advice, so I drastically reduced the guidance and advice, trusting that this is their path in life.
Yes, it was beyond frustrating that they appeared to me to be making poor choices, but that was their choices to make!
I discovered that DC saw it as I was perpetually disappointed in them, that nothing they ever did was good enough for me and that I simply wanted to 'control' them, whereas I felt I was just doing what was best for them.
DC didn't look any further than the end of the week, whereas I was looking much further into the future and their choices in the present had me extremely worried about their future.
I gave them control over their own life and choices without any pressure.
I found a council run youth club and offered to take DC there and they agreed.
They made some friends and that was the start of them finding something outside of the house that they found enjoyable.
Within those 3 months, when I refrained from sharing my worries for their future and endlessly trying to make them see sense, and simply accepted their choices, they began talking to me, telling me of their decisions. They began showering regularly, wanted to spend more time in my company, talking to me more, and through this, I was able to reflect their decisions back to them by asking them what they would like to do instead.
At first, they said they wanted to sleep all day, and when they received no pressure from me, just an acceptance, they felt accepted and slowly, within a couple of weeks began to realise they wanted more out of life.
I realised it had to come from them. They had to believe I accepted them for who they were and that included what they wanted to spend their time doing.
My only stipulation was that it didn't affect me or my home.
My concerns were well founded at the time, but they were my concerns. DC didn't share my concerns so I trusted them to do what they felt was best for them.
After a couple of weeks, DC began confiding in me and I realised that 99% of their issues came from feeling they weren't accepted, that they weren't trusted to make good choices for themselves and that they were only loved conditionally, so long as they did what I wanted, they would be loved, so they rejected my concerns, feeling I was just trying to control them, that I was angry with them a lot of the time.
Yes, I was frustrated, but that was MY frustration and I tried hard not to put that on DC.
They didn't make choices I agreed with but they didn't affect me so I stood back and gave them that right, to make choices for themselves.
Once I adopted these ways of dealing with DC, they began to feel that I understood them more, and they realised they weren't happy the way their life was.
I realised DC had been incredibly unhappy and their behaviour was their way of expressing their deep sadness.
Once they felt accepted, they got happier and more relaxed and then they began making better choices, because they felt they were worth better.
I tried guiding DC for years and years and all it did was destroyed their trust in me.
When I chose to trust them, even when it didn't make sense to me, it paid dividends.
DC is now much happier, making better choices, and has better self esteem now, because they know that no matter what they choose to do, I love them and accept them exactly as they are right now.
Who knows what the future holds?
What I do know is that all of the should have/would have/could have talks never helped one bit.
I spent years and years hoping they would listen and take my advice, and it never worked. What it did achieve was to make sure that DC turned to people who did accept them, they would spend many hours seeking to find people to talk to online who didn't try to guide them. By doing this, I gave any influence I may have had over to complete strangers who were now influencing them and their choices over the internet.
Now I trust them to know what's right for them and they are making progress, they spend less time online, more time in the real world and they talk to ME about their life, not strangers on the Internet.
Ultimately, if my DC messes their life up, it is their life.
I have made mistakes in my life and when I have, if anyone had come down on me hard, telling me what I needed to do, or saying something like 'Well what did you expect? You need to do XYZ and sort it out.' I would automatically feel pissed off and distance myself from that person, despite their best intentions for me. My child is the same.
So I approach it from the angle I'd like to receive it from.
Hope some of this is helpful.

Why don’t you get in touch with stepping stone?

https://www.stepping-stone.org.uk

They can sign post supported hostel type accommodation for young people at risk of homelessness.

It sounds as if the current arrangement is not working.

Also, my child was self harming regularly, and it was accompanied by deep feelings of shame.
I also wondered if it was a manipulation technique. It frightened me that they may do lasting damage to themselves. They also didn't want me to talk about it at all or point out that I had noticed.
I shared my fears with them for a long time and it didn't stop them.

Unfortunately, before I decided to change my words and behaviour towards my child, when i was still deep in the mode of trying to help, advising and guiding them, trying to talk to them, get them to open up to me, putting my foot down with them, attempting to control their choices, which they saw as me not understanding or accepting them, they made a serious attempt to end their life. They were blue lighted to A&E and fortunately, they recovered after spending many days in hospital. I tried even harder to make them see sense after this, because i was so frightened. We saw CAMHS but they were not very helpful imo.
However, when I decided to start listening to my child, no matter how much or little sense I felt they were making and took my foot off the gas, respecting their right to make their own decisions and choices, the self harming decreased enormously.

I learned that they saw rejection in every face they looked at, in every voice that spoke to them and when I look back now, I can see that I was so confused as to how to handle it, but my primary goal wasn't understanding and accepting them and their choices, it was for them to see my point of view.

That is helpful to me (I am not the OP but have similar issues).
However, having relinquished control over the Summer to my two with minimal demands/intervention/control; to allow them both to reset/regulate/depressurise...all I ended up with was two nocturnal, apathetic, bedrotting gamers :-(
I have forced them both to swim and we are going on holiday-by-mistake in the last week but left to their own devices, that's all they'd ever do - devices.
What did yours end up doing job-wise, work-wise? Or are they still in school? How is their hygiene?
I do think "minimum demand" works for ASC especially with a refusal profile but ultimately, if they take all the control, what are you left with when it comes to the non-negotiables? (attendance/teethbrushing/getting up and out once a day). Life skills/adulting.
Was yours ND?

Edit: and that's neither a criticism of your advice nor a criticism of your parenting, I promise.
But I am painfully aware that if I do not force one of mine into school then it is a slippery slope and they'll see it as optional not mandatory.
I let them take one day with autistic burnout and it made things harder the next time not easier. They could not care less if I was fined, ended up in court or lost my job...because in the moment they are only concerned with their immediate need being met at that time.
Sometimes this is due to exhaustion, sometimes it is a genuine trigger and there is a cause of anxiety but sometimes this is wilful/chosen/self sabotage in poor choices they made.
This is not tenable in the long term if they cannot be trusted to make the right choices as they are so young, therefore susceptible to dopamine rushes/validation online/doom scrolling/addictive behaviours.

Thank you, this helps loads. I'm just struggling as my son wasn't like this nor was my daughter. Maybe its calmer as they were easy teens tbh. My son hated school but never refused to go but once he got to college he was focused on his course and loved it, so it is hard.

I have tried backing off re the weed and the alcohol (I only say something about the drinking if he steals it from me as he did at Christmas, he stole a bottle and drank it all over the course of a few days). I do want him to go to college but I know I can't force him, it feels like the only thing that will give him some sort of normality. And make friends though he says he has friends online and down south, he doesn't want any here.

Is this to me?
My DC is still in education and is doing much better. They have gone from showering once a month to showering twice a week, which is a vast improvement.
My DC is ASD with a PDA profile & ADHD, as am I, so I can relate to how they feel and that's helpful for us.
I wonder if OP's GS is in fact ADHD since it's quite common for ADHD to go hand in hand with ASD, and at least there are some treatment options for ADHD, though much of that has been trial and error to find the most suitable medication.
DC finds weed helps their ADHD symptoms a lot and this is another reason I wonder if OP's GS has ADHD.
DC also finds energy drinks calm them down which is common amongst people with ADHD.
I don't like DC drinking energy drinks or smoking weed, but I needed to choose between the ever present battle of forcing what I thought was right for DC and having any kind of relationship with them.
If I have a relationship with them, they let me in. If I sacrifice my relationship with them by controlling them in whatever way works, they shut down and don't let me in at all. This leads to me ruminating, over thinking, focusing on finding out what I can, and losing further trust in them, because I always wound up suspecting the worst!
The erosion of trust is incredibly damaging to the relationship between us.
When the trust erodes, that is when they turn to other people online, people who appear to see the best in them at a time when they feel all the people IRL do not, and i have discovered that there are many people online who will encourage poor choices. I don't encourage poor choices, but I no longer berate for them either. I simply try to trust that DC will learn by their own mistakes, mistakes I had been trying to prevent them making at all, but I am available and on hand if DC needs me, with no berating.
They are walking their own path, it is not my path to walk. But I am metaphorically holding their hand and many of the people they found online to connect with were not interested in their safety, however those people only got through to my child because they accepted my child without rebuke.
I spent 16 years desperate to get my child to see sense, see my point of view, to no avail. In the last 5 years, my child rarely said anything pleasant to me.
Now, they regularly tell me they love me, and they actually thank me. I ask them 'for what?' They always reply 'You get me! You've got me! You understand me!'

This is what my child needed, to be heard, understood and trusted. It changed everything. It was my perception of what they should be doing, focused on, working towards that I needed to accept was my problem.
This works for us.