About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

so Hold on women wanting single sex spaces are like racists bit any man wanting access to those spaces for whatever reason is fine. I’m just trying to process that. What about any psychological damage to a woman who needs a single sex space or does that not count? Why should women be used to support males who believe they are women?

@GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen

🤣🤣🤣 please no 🙏

Hold on women wanting single sex spaces are like racists bit any man wanting access to those spaces for whatever reason is fine.

No. I didn't say anything like that at all.

This absolutely.

It's good for lurkers like you said before, sunlight and operation let them speak is a really wonderful disinfectant to all the misinformation, outright lies, and manipulative propaganda.

I think it can be good for honing your points in the discussion, and for practice at discussing things with a bad faith poster. Like I mentioned earlier about an abusive ex-bf, it can be really upsetting and disorienting to be faced with a bad faith argument style like Tandora's, or even when faced with really outrageous lies, it almost stuns you at first because why would anyone say something so obviously wrong? How do you go about explaining how obvious such a glaringly huge lie is in the face of someone who acts (although doesn't believe) as though they are telling the gospel truth?

Mainly these days, I find Tandra quite funny. I think really it's the only way to maintain some sanity in the face of arguments so detatched from reality, even if it is a desperately important subject really, it's just so out there it's almost parody 😂

Firstly when my elderly Aunt walks into the female changing room at the swimming pool and is confronted by the sight of a cock and balls how does she tell if this is a special 'lady penis' attached to an actual trans person or a totally normal regular penis being exposed by a man looking for sexual kicks?

Secondly if you care so much about women and girls why do you not care about the mountains of evidence that women (actual biological ones) suffer violence and oppression in mixed spaces where they vulnerable?

‘Oi fella, that’s the ladies, you need to use the mens, what the hell are you thinking!!’

’Aaah! Please don’t force me into my birth sex role.’

’You what? Just leave the women alone.’

’I can’t believe you’re trying to deny my transness’

’Mate, I’m trying to keep the blokes out of the ladies, what part don’t you understand?’

I am absolutely not 'advocating' for trans people to conceal aspects of their physiology from their doctor, no.

That's not what this post says at all.

It says that a lot of trans people are very private about being trans (which is true) and that information may not be readily accessible, even on their medical records, which is true.

This is the same for people with DSDs.

What I was objecting to there was the suggestion that trans people should be automatically outed to everyone present by where they are required to sit in the waiting room. (Not enforceable anyway).

People should absolutely have the right to be in control of how and when and to whom their share deeply personal aspects of their body and identity - this goes for all people (its not a principle about trans people specifically). That is the right of every patient and part of basic ethics/ informed consent in medical care. That doesn't mean I am 'advocating' for people to hide things from their doctors.

Want me to paste the quote again?

She might claim to feel like that. A racist person might claim to feel the presence of a "green" person violates their safety and dignity. Doesn't mean that I have to counter that with any legitimacy or grounding in reality.

@Tandora are you just trying to run down the thread till it's over now? 😂

Before it finishes, do you want to provide some evidence of actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying men yet? Or are we to keep on with the only conclusion left to us which is that you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the posterior?

Do you want to answer how trans identifying men in female single sex spaces are of benefit to females?

Would you please explain how trans identified men are "outed" by using mixed sex toilets along with lots of other people of different sex, gender id (if they've got one), those that don't care about which toilet they use, trans identifying females, and trans allies? How is the TRA agenda regarding this supposed "outing" if they use mixed sex toilets not just a cover to facilitate predatory males with an emotionally manipulative excuse to access non-consenting females?

We can always start another thread, would you like to give us one of your special quotes to use for the next one, or should we maybe collectively just pick a favourite that's thematically appropriate and go with that?

Has your aunt, you, or anyone you know ever been "confronted by the sight of a cock and balls" in the female changing room at the swimming pool?

We don't need to police where trans people use facilities to prevent this from happening.

It is not an event that we actually need to worry about in the real world because it doesn't happen. Or it's about as likely to happen as you walking outside and getting struck by lightening.

Let's get real. This is about transphobia.

Yes.

Don’t make me sing again …..🤣

I vote for the. “Women wanting single sex spaces are akin to racists”

Surrrreeee. I'd love to know the details of that story.

Does this sort of thing ever happen anywhere other than Mumsnet?

Funny that Tandora wants evidence of cock & balls, but has failed to provide such for the trans exodus & all these trans women being badly treated in male spaces. And everything else.

Why d’you want ‘evidence’ ? You’ll just toss it into your salad bowl.

I know in your head trans women are these shy, weak, pathetic souls who will go to any lengths to conceal their birth sex but that is far from the truth in many cases and there are lots of transwomen who are quite happy to let women see their penis.

Before it finishes, do you want to provide some evidence of actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying men yet?

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/26895269.2024.2440856#d1e2297

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33600251/

There will be loads more. THis is just the first two hits with an easy google.

I have been using women's facilities all my life. I also know lots of trans people, and have literally never seen a trans woman's penis. Nor to my knowledge has anyone I ever have known.

Oh sorry can't give you any details or evidence that would be 'outting'

I can on the other hand point you in the direction of the Wiispa incident and Lia Thomas.

So one is an example of a rapist?

And the other is an example of an incident that happened in an entirely other country, so rare that it has its own wikipedia page? This person had previous exposure related sexual offences and it's not even clear that they are a trans woman?

And this is your evidence that it's a normal thing for trans women to expose their "cock and balls" in female changers, and therefore a blanket law on the facilities trans people are allowed to use is justified.

Gotcha.

@GetDressedYouMerryGentlemen

I think Tandora’s about to tell you to reframe your trauma. She has the brass nerve.

Which one of those are you saying is an example of a rapist?

DSDs! Anyone have DSD on their bingo card?

So in the context of trans identifying patients not wanting to "out" themselves you are now trying to convince us that your quote just means that information showing they are trans might not be on their medical records. Well that makes no sense because why would their gender be relevant in that context? If the medic has the pertinent information, the patient's biological sex, the patient doesn't need to "out" themselves to ensure they don't end up accidentally receiving life threatening opposite sex medical practices do they? That makes no sense in the context of the quoted posts.

What I was objecting to there was the suggestion that trans people should be automatically outed to everyone present by where they are required to sit in the waiting room.

This is clearly not what you were saying. You were clearly advocating for the concealment of biological sex from medics.

Before the thread finishes, do you want to provide some evidence of actual physical violence and unlawful discrimination against trans identifying men yet? Or are we to keep on with the only conclusion left to us which is that you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the posterior?

Do you want to answer how trans identifying men in female single sex spaces are of benefit to females?

Would you please explain how trans identified men are "outed" by using mixed sex toilets along with lots of other people of different sex, gender id (if they've got one), those that don't care about which toilet they use, trans identifying females, and trans allies? How is the TRA agenda regarding this supposed "outing" if they use mixed sex toilets not just a cover to facilitate predatory males with an emotionally manipulative excuse to access non-consenting females?

I didn't understand most of this incoherent waffle.

You were clearly advocating for the concealment of biological sex from medics.

Nope. I wasn't "advocating" for "concealment". Nowhere did I say this. I said nothing of the sort. 😂😂

I was saying that trans people have a right to privacy, and many chose to exercise this, as is their right.

This goes for all people, it's a basic human right - it's literally in the law. The right to privacy.