About Gender neutral loo

[paulhollywoodshairgel]

I was in a museum today and my daughter (15) left me to go to the loo. She then waved me over.. she said to me.. I’d rather not use the gender neutral loo. I said that’s fine and sent her down a level to the ladies. A woman the approached me and preceded to tell me off for not encouraging my daughter to use the GN loo. How she has a trans child and how are they ever going to feel accepted with people like me around. I’m ND and I always second guess myself 10000 times a day. I wasn’t in the wrong was I?? I just said ok go and use the other separate loo. Surely my child can pee wherever she feels comfortable??!! I hate conflict so I just said ok and walked off!

Its against the law to designate a space for one sex or the other (which sometimes the law requires that we do) and then allow that space to become mixed sex by permitting some people of the opposite sex to use it.
Providers doing so will fall foul of the law on one or both of two counts. Firstly that they are failing to provide a single sex space where (if) they are legally required to do so.

Yes we've been through this, I disagree, but this at least an interpretation of law that has some reasonable basis in reality.

What I was objecting to was people repeatedly, falsely claiming that a trans woman using a women's toilet was themself directly breaking the law. This is not the case as you correctly point out.

@Tandora so what is the point of your pages and pages and pages of waffle about the complexity of sex if it isn't a attempt to convince us that some 'men' aren't 'men' but are in fact actually 'women' because primary and secondary sexual characteristics aren't important when it comes to sexing someone.

Why are you so certain that when someone calls your baby 'girl' he they are misgendering 'her'? How do you know 'she' is definitely a she and not one of these oh so complex cases where sex isn't what it might seem to be but is actually some other undetectable indefinable feeling in the human brain?

I think you'll find that I've said you're a proven liar because you said you had never advocated for trans identifying patients to conceal their biological sex in a medical setting and I went and found one post (out of many) where you supported exactly that.

I've also posited the theory that you must be lying about how trans identified males are at risk in men's single sex spaces and that they are being unlawfully discriminated against because you cannot provide any proof of either of those things having ever happened.

You still haven't explained to me how trans identified men are "outed" by using a mixed sex toilet alongside other people, those of either sex, those of any gender identity (if they have one), the people who don't care which toilet they use, the trans identifying women, and the trans allies. We are left to conclude that you are lying about that too, and you just want to facilitate men who want access to non-consenting females in their single sex spaces, which is inherently predatory to boot.

And you still haven't explained to @Namelessnelly how letting trans identifying males into female single sex spaces is in anyway beneficial to females so we can conclude that you were lying about that too, in fact we didn't really need extra proof of that one because we already have clear evidence that single sex spaces which exclude any male are actually of benefit to women and reduce the risk of harm being done to them.

I’m still waiting for T to address the philosophical question of why trans age is not as valid as trans gender.

They want to dismiss the debate on the basis that they think the example given is just a weirdy outlier on the internet (how very judgey & mean🤣).

We don’t want to discuss the individual man involved, but why T would affirm his trans gender status but not his trans age.

They’ll come on and say I’ve addressed this 100s of times.
They haven’t.

I haven't said it though, so your claims/ your behaviour on this thread is very odd.

never advocated for trans identifying patients to conceal their biological sex in a medical setting and I went and found one post (out of many) where you supported exactly that.

Where did I do this?

"Advocate" for a trans person to "conceal" aspects of their physiology from a doctor?

Agree
It is illegal for transwomen to use a single sex space not aligning with their sex ie a women’s toilet or changing room
Gender is irrelevant to single sex spaces

I’m still waiting for T to address the philosophical question of why trans age is not as valid as trans gender

As you well know I've directly responded to this several times.

No it's not 😂😂

The SC judgement is about obligations on service providers r.e. equalities law and non-discrimination. A civil area of law.

As odd as yours? You’ve lied, refused to answer questions, and tried to bully people into believing in your ideology.

You said this ‘……’

No I didn’t.

Yes, look ‘…..’

No I didn’t

You did ‘….’

No, I said ‘…..’ (redefines words, settled science, stable categories, etc).

I don’t think MN was created for this. A padded cell maybe?

I haven't lied. I haven't bullied anyone (although you have participated in collective bullying of me).

I've chosen to answer the questions that I consider there to be merit in responding to.

I've not chosen to answer:

• completely ridiculous questions/ questions that have no coherence
• questions that are based on logical fallacy,
• and questions that I have answered repeatedly already but pps continue to insist I have not.

But you have not answered my question about why I as a woman should give up my comfort and dignity of a single sex space to let a male into that space? What is the benefit to me? If you have answered, just copy and paste it. No biggie.

🤣🤣 Bingo 🤣🤣

As I predicted T had apparently already answered the philosophical nature of the two claims.

Please can I see your post. You said you’d answered it several times, so you must be able to search that up, or explain it here.

That comes in the logical fallacy question. To answer it I have to agree with your premise that sharing the use of public toilets with a trans woman is a violation of your "comfort" and "dignity".

Here Tandora, as I have said there were other posts where you have said the same but honestly I don't really want to trawl through thousands of your posts to find them because as this shows, even though you denied doing it, you did do this.

FWIW if you had a PhD in the field of biological development (which I think was what you said in a previous thread?), surely you would know how dangerous concealing your biological sex in a medical setting was? In case anyone were ever left in any doubt as to the veracity of your claims.

I have also said that I believe that you have changed your tactics since I last saw you post outright support of the concealment of sex in a medical setting. I believe this is because it was pointed out to you how incredibly dangerous this would be over multiple threads and by many different posters, this change in tactics has eventually lead to the "sex is a biologically complex" word salad quote titled threads which were set up for you.

Page 23 | Feminists against sex segregation in sports | Mumsnet

Tandora · 04/08/2024 02:19

SilenceInside · 04/08/2024 02:14
It's not because they are trans that they shouldn't be on a single sex female ward, it's because they are male. It's a nonsense to suggest that it's about "upsetting women with their transness" when you've just been told it's about women being traumatised and distressed, and being put at additional risk. No one would need to "out" the transwoman as other patients aren't told why some patients are in side rooms!

(Tandora)
I don’t think trans people should always have to be put in side rooms to make women more comfortable. That is part of trying to make trans people disappear from public life and making them feel like stigmatised or second class people. And by outing themselves - I also mean to the medical staff! Plenty of trans girls and women are really private about being trans and the pass as women, it wouldn’t even necessarily be on their medical records.

So when you said on another thread (as evidenced on this thread by a PP) that Trans people shouldn't have to 'out themselves' to medical professionals in a hospital setting by informing them of their natal sex what were you doing if not trying to
"Advocate" for a trans person to "conceal" aspects of their physiology from a doctor?

No you don’t, you just have to accept that @Namelessnelly feels like that and answer the question from there.

Just give it a go instead of trying to worm out of it.

It would require a bit of empathy and understanding of theory of mind…

Women's facilities are for women, provided for reasons other than validation. If you aren't a woman or don't feel like you are, use a mixed sex facility.

Categories of questions Tandora will not/can not answer

• ones that show she’s an ideologue who believes men can become women, & as such have every right to use female single sex spaces, even if they’re not welcome.

So, every question.

so what you are saying is that I as a woman do not deserve comfort and dignity but a male must be allowed into my single sex space for his comfort and dignity? That is what you’re really saying? Wow!!! There we have it. I thought you were an advocate of women’s comfort and dignity. I’m guessing you didn’t mean females. At least you answered.

Exactly.

So I said:

"I don’t think trans people should always have to be put in side rooms to make women more comfortable. That is part of trying to make trans people disappear from public life and making them feel like stigmatised or second class people. And by outing themselves - I also mean to the medical staff! Plenty of trans girls and women are really private about being trans and the pass as women, it wouldn’t even necessarily be on their medical records.*

Which in no way shape or form constitutes "advocating" for trans people to conceal their physiology from their doctors.

@Tandora you can’t decide for individual women what they feel is a violation of their comfort and dignity.

Males can be removed from and denied access to single sex spaces. Providers in accordance with Building Regs 1992 and the Equalities Act 2010 must comply with provision for single sex spaces in accordance and where possible.
Women are protected under the Equalities Act and as such anyone not acting within the law is acting outside of it

Men can be removed from situations when they act outside of the law. Early days but if there are lots of people like you around we’ll start seeing the law being upheld.
FWS has given the Scottish Government 21 days to sort their house out and abide by the SC ruling.

The SC ruling is quite clear on sex and biology and whilst trans people and Stonewall had taken advantage and attempted to blindside organisations with ‘me speak’ in order to force the abandonment of women’s rights we will see our rights upheld once again.
Obviously. Common sense, knowledge and facts are everything

Now I’ve ignored by modus operandi to ignore you 🤣🤣