To be so annoyed about the dangers of being a woman?

[Givemeanamethen]

I like to run or go for long walks. I ususally listen to music or books or whatever.

There are some lovely long circular routes near me through woods and along streams. I do do them, but am always slightly on edge because it’s so big that you can go a while without seeing anyone, and if I pass a man I can’t help but think ‘if I was attacked here no one would hear’. I try and do these at busy times, be finished before it starts getting dark and I’d never do it in the rain because of how quiet it would be. It irritates me that men, of course, won’t have to consider any of this.

Tonight, I didn’t have time to go there so did a four mile route from my house. It’s pretty and got a ruralise atmosphere but the roads are relatively busy, for a Sunday night, and there are plenty of houses. I don’t ususally worry at all on this route.

But this evening, some fucking dickhead cycled up behind me, on the path instead of the road, and shouted right in my ear, clearly to try and frighten me and embarrass me, then he and his friend cycled away.

I’m so angry that I can’t even go on a walk without men getting a buzz out of harassing me.

Not even really sure what my AIBU is but I’m so angry that I could cry.

What gives you the audacity to call that poster a "twat" for simply being male. What a crude and ignorant comment.

Oh not that pop psychology victim cloak again 🙄

It’s also the fact that sexual assault is a ‘go to’ power move for the wrong type of men. Just look at recent wars, one of the first things that happens is that women and girls are raped by the invading men. There’s no justification for it, they aren’t subduing a dangerous force, they are demonstrating their strength and the vulnerability of women and girls. An aggressive bully man doesn’t insult the intelligence of a woman, he calls her a slag and tells her he’s going to rape her, he gets into her personal space and demonstrates that she has no ability to stop him that’s she’s powerless against him. Look at Afghanistan where as soon as a group of controlling men took power the first things they started to institute was complete control of women, we now have an entire country where women cannot be educated, cannot leave their homes without being accompanied by a male relative, cannot see a doctor, cannot speak in the presence of other people, have to keep curtains closed because they are not allowed to be seen in their homes from the outside, must cover every millimetre of their skin and most recently are being told they must keep one eye fully covered because they do not have the ‘right to see the path with both eyes’.
In the U.K. we could consider ourselves exceptionally lucky that for the vast majority of us the risk is to our feelings, of being jeered at by strangers or having a man get too close or too grabby in a bar, being a bit pervy by sitting on our seat in an empty bus and trying to convince us to give him our number when it’s clear we don’t want to. In comparison to what millions of women face daily it can seem inconsequential, but that doesn’t actually make it right.

I don’t live in fear or restrict myself from doing things but I do take reasonable safety steps and I do make sure I’m always aware of my surroundings.

You might question those stats, but the Australian Bureau of Statistics (where I am) reports 23% of women experience sexual violence (rape, sexual assault, or child sexual abuse) in their lifetimes https://www.abs.gov.au/articles/sexual-violence-victimisation; best UK stats I could find are 20% https://criminalinjurieshelpline.co.uk/blog/sexual-abuse-data-stats/.

The fear isn't just about likelihood, though that has a lot to do with it; it is also a crime against the person where the legal system assumes the victim...isn't a victim, and so it is incumbent upon potential victims to keep themselves safe; paranoia seems like a reasonable strategy in that context.

Ironically, given the 1/4 statistic, the ONS reports that 1/4 women were harassed whilst out and about in the year 2021-2022 (also the year Sarah Everard was abducted, raped and murdered by a police officer nicknamed the rapist), in comparison with 16% of men. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/perceptionsofpersonalsafetyandexperiencesofharassmentgreatbritain/16februaryto13march2022.

(edited to fix accidental strikeout)

And that is obviously horrific.

I've just checked.

The estimated that 1.1 million adults aged 16 years and over experienced sexual assault in the year ending March 2022 (798,000 women and 275,000 men). This equates to a prevalence rate of approximately 2.3% of adults (3.3% women and 1.2% men).

According to Google, these are the latest figures of sexual offences in England and Wales.

Obviously, these are only reported offences and I didn't read far enough to know whether these included all reports or just convictions (I add this caveat because we all know that sexual offences are under reported - I've never reported one - and conviction rates are low.)

There is obviously a difference between offences against men and women. Neither figure seems very high given levels of fear amongst some women. Although the rate of sexual offences against women is still more than double sexual offences against men.

So, with that in mind, what is the real difference/reason for women's fear?

I've already detailed several instances of my own experiences. None of the men I know have ever felt sexual threat/experienced sexual assault from a stranger on the street. Two men I know have told me about a sexual experiences with an intimate female partner that were sexual assault. One has detailed sexual harassment/assault in the workplace.

I've had far more positive/neutral interactions with men over my lifetime than I have negative. And I'd imagine that's true of most women. And I'm not scared. I don't live my life in fear. But I'm still aware and still occasionally wary.

So what's the difference? Reason?

Women are more sexualised generally in society? In the media?

Men are presented as more predatory and violent generally? In the media?

Sexualised micro aggression? Differences in perception? Eg a man regards a comment to a woman as lighthearted or innocent or even a compliment - eg he might comment on her body but has no intention of raping her? A woman perceives it as threatening or intimidating?

A lot of porn has become more aggressive towards women in its focus?

I don't watch films with sexual violence against either men or women in them. But many films include rape or attempted rape against women or 'two men discuss raping a woman' as par for the course. Sexual assault against men in films is designed to show how evil and depraved the perpetrators are and is rare. Sexual violence against women is often just showhorned in as entertainment. Or to show how 'vulnerable' a woman is. It's a standard plot device.

I've disregarded one film this year on the basis of sexual violence against a man. I reject several films weekly on the basis of sexual violence against women.

Even in Deliverance, which is the most famous film I can think of which features a male rape, the assault happens in the background and is out of focus. We hear/see little of the man's distress. The focus is on the discomfort of the man who is aware it is happening but feels powerles to stop it and on the depravity of the rapist, it's a device to show us just how dangerous these men are. And its so uncommon as to still be notable 53 years after the film was released.

Rapes against women in films is commonplace. Often in full focus and with the focus on the pain and distress of the woman. Why? Because some men want to see it? Because it positions men as strong? Women as weak/vulnerable?

What is the impact of that?

It normalises it for men? Generates fear in women? Creates an appetite for sexual violence against women as entertainment? A perception that its only luck that protects us? A sense of that's just what men do? Asense that it's not that bad for women when it happens because it happens so often and women are used to it?

And how many threads start in MN asking, "Was this rape?" Or variations of that or describe sexual situations that a woman has come to accept as normal in her relationship but makes her feel uncomfortable because it is actually assault?

And I always wonder when women post saying I've never experienced that, whether some of them have actually experienced something but they haven't recognised it as sexual assault (or even rape) because of the wider normalising.

I've certainly seen threads where women have posted, "I've never been sexually assaulted or raped," but then go on to say, "Well, yes, of course I've experienced X situation but that's normal. All women have had that happen!"

Eg my mum would tell you he's never been raped because she's never been dragged off the street into bushes. But she also told me many times as a teen that, "You will have to let a man have sex with you even when you don't want to have sex with him. All women do. It's just easier." But that's rape.

See, this is terrible, and it's awful that someone was assaulted there.
It's like saying that there was a car accident on a stretch of road though, so you're never going to travel down that road or get into a car again in case it crashes.
You're limiting yourself with your fears, sorry if that sounds harsh but you can't hide away on a what if basis.

its good you feel safe, and I probably shouldn’t try and ruin that feeling of safety. But if a man decides to attack you, you are very unlikely going to be able to fight them off. It would be a surprise and one yank of your ponytail or one shove you’d be on the floor and they would be physically stronger than you. Even if you think you know some self defence, it won’t matter

A man may have a similar physical strength to the other man attacking them. Also they’re very unlikely to be attacking the man with the intention to rape them. It’d more likely be a mugging etc.

Stranger attacks are rare and I agree we shouldn’t live in fear as the chances of something happening are low, but they do happen and you’re wrong to say that you’re not more vulnerable as a woman

That’s why MN should introduce the 🤣🤣 emoticon.

You should have!!!!!

EVERY WOMAN I know has some story of public personal harassment. That can go from physical violence, sexual violence to being screamed at, sexual comments, innuendos etc.

And yet most men I know don't...

I have to strongly disagree with you based on my personal experiences and those of my female friends. Which is obviously also anecdotal. And yet most of my female friends say the same.

Whereas most male friends of mine are surprised and shocked when I or other (female) friends decided to share some of our experiences.

I understand thr point you're making, which I think is namely that just becaise something awful happened to one person there doesn't increase the liklihood of the same awful thing happen to someone else there.

The difference for me though is this.

A road accident is rarely intentional. It's a mistake, an accident, an error in judgement, a momentary lapse in concentration. Either user error or an unanticipated failure in the vehicle.

Sexual assault/rape/intimidation is not an accident. Whether premeditated or opportunistic, it is always a choice. There is an intention to harm another, which is rarely if ever present in a car accident.

There is no chance of the car driver at fault revisiting that stretch of road to recreate the accident would another driver.

It's just not comparable.

it makes me SO angry. I dream of this all being changed (by curfews? geotags?)

It's ridiculous to think you could use a curfew for half the population as well like it would be a solution.
What would happen to the workforce? Places relying on shift workers would collapse.

You can choose what to do with that experience though. I personally have a couple of stories that I could make hay out of if I wanted to, but I choose not to. I don't ever feel scared walking around. Just because you've experienced sexual assault doesn't mean you need to be scared or to particularly constrain your life.

i used to get this when I cycled.

it just makes you feel constantly on edge. And it’s shit.

I am on a wait list for a puppy and I've purposely picked a breed that is naturally a defender and can run with me just so that I am able to do a morning or evening run and reduce the risk of something happening to me. Of course the dog will be loved family member but it's upsetting that I essentially need a guard dog to be able to live my life how I want it.

That's like me - some comments shouted through car windows for example. I just think "dickhead" or "wtf" and laugh to myself.
I'm certainly not going to stop going to places by myself or be too worried to as a result.
(Aware I'm not speaking for how everyone feels before anyone starts, I'm just saying me personally(

OK but '23% of women experience sexual assault, some of which is rape' is VERY DIFFERENT to '1 in 4 women are raped'

The definition of sexual assault is extremely broad - I'm not an expert but I would imagine it includes being pinched on the bottom. Not nice, but also not rape

You are right to have the rage. I would love to go camping alone, like I did in the 80's and as I'm looking online at equipment, tents etc. I realised that I would be too scared to camp in a tent on my own and would have to sleep in my van.

I am afraid of men basically.

But this evening, some fucking dickhead cycled up behind me, on the path instead of the road, and shouted right in my ear, clearly to try and frighten me and embarrass me, then he and his friend cycled away.

I did this last week. On the canal path which is quite narrow (and yet is somehow part of the National Cycle Network). I rang my bell and called out a few times as I approached, but she didn't hear me as she had headphones in. I called out again when I was quite close and the poor woman jumped out of her skin. So while I don't think it was you @Givemeanamethen as some of the details were different, I shall apologise anyway.

I'll also apologise for my sex for some of the muppets upthread. I actually got punched in the face by some random just before Christmas, for no better reason than he decided he just didn't like my face. And yeah, it left me shook up for a little while and nervous when out walking alone. But that fades, because at the end of the day I know that in a situation like that I have a reasonable chance of getting away or overpowering an attacker. And at the end of the day, the worst thing that can happen to me is getting murdered. DP and DD have far worse to fear unfortunately.

I agree but much of the advice historically given to women pretty much equates to a self curfew or at least placing restrictions on yourself.

Don't go put alone after dark, don't go to places alone, don't walk down the street after dark, don't use public transport in the evening, always park in a well lit area, don't get drunk, don't be alone with a man you don't know, don't wear this, do that, go there...

This advice was certainly on posters on the back of loos in public spaces when I was a teenager/younger woman.

When someone suggests placing restrictions on men, we automatically recognise it as ridiculous ,impractical, impossible, and just downright unfair. Because it is and it would be. It's not a solution because not all men are violent or rapists.

But when women are given safety advice that amounts to the same thing, it's often regarded as common sense good advice. Of course it makes sense not to walk down the street alone at night, of course it makes sense not to go to the pub aloneoff course it makes sense to restrict your movements after dark, of course it makes sense to/not to... You don't want to get yourself raped (was the message of my youth).

The same suggestions when leveled at the other half of the population feels sensible but the impact on that half of the population is no different.

It's more common for women to be intimidated in the 'lesser' ways that some people on here are describing: men walking/cycling/driving alongside and shouting things, etc.
I very much doubt that a man or teenage boy would do something like ride his bike up to another man's face and shout at him, for example.
It's this kind of everyday lower-level stuff that is so wearing and so blatantly sexist.

That's it really. It's the very low level stuff.men do to women that raise the sense of fear/risk generally.

Men don't generally shout into a man's face walking past because the fear to them is that he might be one of the men who would punch him. Whereas they a) have no similar fear of women and b) get a kick out of doing it.

I walk often and I’m so sick of young male cyclists riding aggressively on pavements. Can’t wait for the summer holidays to be over. Yes and the smell of weed accompanying them.

There are many posts of here, so angry and hateful, towards men and women.Think this thread has not got, is very nasty from the start.Personally, glad to say l don’t hate men.I do understand why women, find it frustrating, that men post on MN.I do think it’s a good thing though, when they say straight away they’re a male, giving a male perspective.Just don’t agree with, posters on this thread getting aggressive towards men.Hopefully we all know, not all men are the same.

Yes this was absolutely nothing at all like that. As I quite clearly said in my OP, it was men on bikes on the pavement instead of on a perfectly good duel carriageway who waited until he was right behind me to scream ‘boo’ right in my ear, intentionally to frighten me.

They were not cyclists out for exercise.

Sorry to be harsh but I explained very clearly that he was intentionally trying to scare me so I’m not sure how it’s anything like you describe.