To think that, under the threat of "Let the war begin", there should be specific laws against male's entering female private spaces (and vice versa)

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

After being told they will not be allowed to enter female toilets, changing rooms, clubs and other private sexed spaces, men have vowed to "fight" or be arrested “multiple times”

https://archive.ph/tdkd0

"Let the war begin. Fingers crossed. You need to fight for all of us globally. It’s a war."

I think it is reasonable to have a specific crime for this sort of violation of rights and privacy, rather than Outraging public decency, Voyeurism, Exposure/ indecent exposure.

It seems clear that without firm dealing with, men are going to violate these spaces again and again.

That’s why I said ‘I’ have no problem.

I’m not personally a fan of using my own or friends rapes as fight currency so wont engage in the second bit

I’m not a nurse or a doctor and you I think are or referenced being? So - yknow, you know about this and I don’t.

Would it not just be a case of using the catheter for the… job, as it were? Genuinely I don’t know how this works, like, do you get there and go ‘oh this’ll be a that catheter then’ or are they miles away and you’ve got to bring the right one with you? I’m sounding facetious but I genuinely am asking cos it might not be as simple as I’m imagining.

The argument, debate or whatever you want to call it, hinges on the biological differences between men and women. Proponents of gender identity, such as Tandora, say that biological sex is ill defined, depends on numerous vague factors that must be aligned and on what an individual feels, in some bio-cognitive way, what their sex is. Sex realists disagree. The catheterisation was an example of significant biological differences between the sexes and how it can matter in a medical setting. This is particularly relevant as we have recently seen medical professionals claiming they cannot tell the difference between a man and a woman without examining their chromosomes (and similar nonsense). Numerous other examples and analogies have been used, some good, some less so.
Unfortunately, toilets and the need to use them are a big focus in the conversation, largely because trans identified people, particularly trans identified men are very resistant to using unisex or gender neutral facilities because they desperately need the presence of women - the cunty kind, as we like to say - to validate them.

I'm sorry, what?

You're saying we're not allowed to point out that some women are going to struggle hugely with men in their spaces?

You want to silence the stories of vulnerable women so you can support a men's rights movement?

Well that's strikes me as utterly gross.

Yes we understand that you have no problem. I'm genuinely glad that that's the case for you. That's a privileged position to be in. Other women are not so fortunate,

But why did you feel the need to point that out in the first place, when you are not the only woman who needs to be accommodated here?

Well many of us do have a problem with that including my teenage daughters and husband. If any of us see women escorting men into women’s facilities we will be taking steps to prevent it happening again. Through the proper channels of course.

Why don’t you go and hang out with those men in the unisex toilets and try and give them the validation they crave and we’ll keep the ladies for women only.

I’ve just come back to the thread. We’ve had phantom limbs, male toddlers using female toilets, anorexia, whether a man claiming to be a woman is as valid as the same man claiming to be a 6 year old girl, white people claiming to be black.

I can’t think of any other ideology where the statements & justifications lead down such rabbit holes. But of course they do, because the basic premise is flawed, that men can be women.

If I want to justify my experience of being taken by an alien, & spending time on the mothership, I’m going to twist myself until I look like a pretzel.

RedToothBrush absolutely nailed this issue. It’s not some ethereal complex issue that rewrites biological sex. It’s young, vulnerable, usually autistic and/or gay children being sucked into an ideology led by middle aged men, who use these children as ‘proof’ that you’re trans from birth.

I’ve worked with many of these young people, all female, & it’s terrifying to see them captured by a lie (mainly through social media) that their distress is not due to being an autistic teenager, with many other comorbidities, but that they’re actually the opposite sex. It’s wicked.

The young male I know that has claimed to be a woman for the last few years is a lovely, gentle, effeminate gay man. Very clever & autistic. Quite a lot of trauma in his background. He struggled terribly to fit in; at a university in the South the Rainbow brigade found him.

Where were all the trans, non-binary & gender fluid children 10 years ago, or further back? Nowhere. There were gender non confirming children who grew up not being told that there was a right or wrong way to be male or female. No lies, no social contagion.

Before this the number of, overwhelmingly, men, who lived with genuine distress as to their sex, was extremely low, I believe quite stable at less than 1%. They didn’t demand societal change to accommodate their distress but were, quite rightly, offered talking therapies & further interventions where necessary. My understanding of this group is that they lived private, dignified lives, like most of the population.

Rapes are 'currency'.

I'll hand it too you, that's a different way to rephrase 'frame your trauma'. That's pretty damn low.

That's some pretty spectacular misogyny on display right there.

Well done.

You damn well are using rape as currency to try and smear women who have faced trauma as somehow weaponising it against transpeople.

Slow handclap.

Fight currency?

Jesus christ, I'm going to pretend I didn't just read that. Good night.

Do you think posters engage their brains before they poster appalling stuff like that?

I honestly don't know.

I can only conclude that women are so far down their list of priorities that it doesn't even occur to them how appalling they sound.

Yes, it is about using the correct catheter for the job.

So which one is the correct catheter? You don't need to be a nurse or a doctor for this. All the information you need has been supplied to you.

‘…. fight currency’

So there we have it, ladies & gentlemen, the absolute gutter level of those who support these men.

Men rape women. One of the many reasons we have every f*cking right to our single sex spaces. The very fact that you can try & frame this as fight currency is beneath contempt.

Women being sexually assaulted is the actual reality of many women’s lives. Whereas on this thread we’ve had page after page of contrived fantasy to pretend that men are living the life of women because of their inner experience.

How dare you criticise another woman for stating the real fear that many women have in being forced to share their spaces with men. You’re such a cool girl, inviting the guys in with you. I actually think women like you are as bad as the men.

OK so I am not Tandora and I don’t do theory. I’m also not asking you to agree with me, but you’ve posted a thing explaining your views, though you don’t really present them as your views, it’s more like a statement from a body, with the ‘we’. Anyway you can have my views if that’s what you want.

Obviously there are commonly recognisable biological differences between what we call women and men. Some are more pronounced than others and there are individual outliers. there’s gonna be overlap and that’s before you get into stuff about gender, which is massive, and also specific to culture.

I just think it’s already incredibly, incredibly complicated. Hundreds of layers of cultural knowledge and biology intertwined, fed through capitalism and mass media and shat out again, tweaked and processed by history and time. And that’s before you go outside (mostly white) western culture which is where I am. What I’m saying is I cannot say I understand my female place in the world as ‘a person who conforms to female biological sex characteristics’. That isn’t how I understand being female. But I know I am. I also know that there are loads of women in the world who also know they are but in completely different ways.

aside from gender ‘woman’ there’s gender ‘man’ and also ‘relation woman and man’ and holy FUCK is that a rich seam that academics and novelists have been mining for centuries.

So I just cannot see that adding a bit more complexity is an issue. Some people want to be a woman, go for it, you’ll do as good a job as anyone. non binary, awesome. You’re a man? Have fun buddy.

In the early days of this debate there was an incredibly tiresome ‘define a woman’ era. Suspect a load of you were there for it. God it was dull. You just know. Who am I to tell someone they’re wrong for wanting to know?

oh, toilets. I just do not care. I can’t even talk about it, Ive got nothing to say

Nup, I said I myself have made a personal choice not to bring it up in these sorts of interactions. You can do what you want, I’m not the boss of you

It was though. It was a move to gain the upper hand using someone else’s rape. That’s what it was

oh, toilets. I just do not care. I can’t even talk about it, Ive got nothing to say

YOU don't care but other women do.

I shared the circumstances of a women who does care, for good reason. And you accused me of using this for 'fight currency'. 🙄

So all I can conclude is that these vulnerable women do not matter to you.

What matters to you is that the men get what they want and you get the cool girl points for taking the men's rights activists side.

Forgive me if I have a huge problem with you presenting that as some sort of moral high round.

How freaking dare you.

All you're trying to do here is silence women's narratives that are inconvenient to your position.

Its revolting.

But you keep bringing up your own personal point of view, as if that's relevant to women who have endured far more trauma than you,

Why do you think you 'not caring' is in any way relevant to their position?

Inchworm

You really are saying the quiet part out loud. You think in a debate about whether women should feel comfortable with men in their single sex spaces, that a woman reminding you that women who’ve been sexually assaulted are particularly vulnerable, is merely just trying to get the upper hand.

The fact you can justify it is why you had the gall to say it in the first place.

Why don’t you want to acknowledge the real life experience of 1 in 4 women Inchworm? Too real, too grubby, too uncomfortable? Too inconvenient?

I’ve had lots of uncomfortable conversations in trying to ensure that men don’t get access to women’s spaces. But I’m prepared to have them because I care about all women, including the cool girls.

'Upper hand'

You are beneath contempt.

That's the second time YOU have weaponised rape AGAINST women on a thread entitled AIBU To think that, under the threat of "Let the war begin", there should be specific laws against male's entering female private spaces (and vice versa)

It's sick and I swear you are doing it for effect. No one could be that dense.

I’ve been very clear that this is my view. No ‘we’ no speaking for anyone. It’s just what I think.

you can conclude what you like. I think the logic is flawed but you can still think it

Okay, fantastic. As has been pointed out, you are 100% free to hang out in unisex spaces, leaving women's rights to their own sex spaces alone.

Whst logic do you think is flawed?

It is very much how it came across to me, like you were trying to make me feel like I shouldn’t have my opinion because your friend who was raped wouldn’t like it. That’s what that is. It wasn’t like you were part of a body of evidence for something, you were just saying my opinion was wrong because your friend was a rape victim and would feel differently. Speaking to a woman, that’s a hell of a thing to throw, and I think you know that