To think that, under the threat of "Let the war begin", there should be specific laws against male's entering female private spaces (and vice versa)

[SingleSexSpacesInSchools]

After being told they will not be allowed to enter female toilets, changing rooms, clubs and other private sexed spaces, men have vowed to "fight" or be arrested “multiple times”

https://archive.ph/tdkd0

"Let the war begin. Fingers crossed. You need to fight for all of us globally. It’s a war."

I think it is reasonable to have a specific crime for this sort of violation of rights and privacy, rather than Outraging public decency, Voyeurism, Exposure/ indecent exposure.

It seems clear that without firm dealing with, men are going to violate these spaces again and again.

No, it’s whether one is male or female, a girl or a boy. And it’s not down to stereotypes or social norms.

You are still conflating sex and gender.

no you misunderstand sex and gender and that’s why you don’t understand what being trans is

No, sex is a real, physical thing. Not knowing what sex one is would be a sign of serious mental deficit.

A 'gender', that a person can experience, is a made up theoretical concept which didn't exist until the late 1970s.

Nobody can change sex, and their sex is fixed at the moment of conception, months before birth.

'Gender identity' is how one feels about the stereotypes associated with one's sex. That's all. Whether one likes and wishes to conform to the set of stereotypes, or not.

Its been reified into this whole big thing; when it's really unexceptional. Its not a holy, sacred knowledge, it's just how one feels.

I reckon this is why so many are puzzled by it. Its not that people are lacking one, it's that it's such an unexceptioonal and frankly not very meaningful thing to talk about that many are puzzled by it being turned into the basis for a political movement and all this grief.

Oh is that the problem?

Can you explain sex and gender so that we understand which bit is ‘bio’ and which bit is ‘psychological’ please?

Sounds like you are describing a psychological issue to me.

If a trans identified male believes they have actually changed sex (we know some do), that is contrary to reality. If it is "exceptionally painful, disorienting and psychologically torturous" for a trans identified male to be confronted with the reality that they are still, and always will be male, or because the law says they can't be treated as women at all times because it infringes on women's rights, or because they can't compel other people to validate them and go along with the madness of gender ideology, they need a great deal of mental health support.

Nothing you have said is grounded in material reality, or provable in any way like, oh say, how bioloigical sex is based in material reality and provable.

It is easy:

sex = what you were born (male / female) it is derived from the biology of your body, is binary (male / female) and can never change (born a man = always a man)

gender is an external snapshot of how society sees men and women at any one point in time. As mentioned above it is a collection of societies stereotypes but of that moment - so in regency times the stereotype of posh men was in high heels, powdered wigs and faces, makeup and jewellery - come forward 200 years and some of that might be the stereotype for posh women! A regency man who lived long enough to be in this century (or even the 1930s) would not suddenly have become a woman, they would simply be dressing in an old fashioned way!

until the 1920s pink was seen as a boy’s colour and blue for girls - now the stereotype is reversed… but a boy wearing pink now hasn’t become a girl, they are simply dressing outside the norm for their sex.

sex is binary and immutable so you can’t change sex

gender is an external observational snapshot in time of stereotypes, so you can’t change gender, you simply move the boundaries / start to change the stereotype. A man wearing a dress isn’t a woman they simply change a bit of the stereotype for how men dress - if all men wore dresses, they wouldn’t become women, they would simply change the male gender norm or stereotype of that era to include wearing dresses…

as you can’t change sex because it is immutable, and you can’t change gender because it is flexible and observational, there is no ability to transition - so trans doesn’t actually exist…

so those who feel that way have something going on which might need help - mental health issues, delusion, some thing more sinister…

This is the Argument from Cleverness, generally a last ditch attempt to get the last word by saying your opponent is too stupid to understand what you say.

If what you are saying is that a biologically male can become - or essentially is - a biologically female person, you are wrong, in the same way that those who used “reason” to try to convince me that bread and wine became, in reality, the body and blood of Christ when I was a child.

You are welcome to believe it. Trans people are welcome to believe it. What you and they should not do is demand that everyone else should believe it too. Religious conflicts of the past demonstrate the very great harm this can do.

Not sure why my posts are duplicating. I’ll get them removed.

That's been happening to people on and off for the last few days, If you are still in the 'edit' time window the easiest thing is to reduce the post back to 'removed because duplicate'.

👏

If the gender category woman includes transwomen, then I am not part of that category. I have nothing that places me in their category whilst excluding me from the category they call men. If they are women, I am not. If they are not women, then I am. What is my gender identity?

of serious mental deficit

that’s just placing unnecessary value judgement on it.

beinf trans is to have a misalignment between registered sex and awareness of sex. You may believe this to be impossible because you don’t understand it, but it is what it is and it’s not going to change.

Of course, questions like that disappear if I ignore the ridiculous gender identity categorisation and look only at the sex categorisation, where there are two, mutually exclusive circles and every human in the world fits into one or the other. One way of categorising humans leads to impossible paradoxes, the other is a useful categorisation in every day life.

No gender identity has nothing to do with stereotypes

You aren't trans and yet you are fighting for a group you can't even clearly define.
We are women and we are fighting to retain rights other women already fought for and won.

Being trans is very easy to define and no threat to women’s rights.

I also fight for women’s rights :)

@Tandora

beinf trans is to have a misalignment between registered sex and awareness of sex. You may believe this to be impossible because you don’t understand it, but it is what it is and it’s not going to change.

That is about the most accurate thing you have said!
i.e. a person who is confused / delusional / has mental health issues / has some other ulterior motive in pretending to be the opposite sex. Whichever it is leads to a misalignment between their actual sex and how they 'feel' / 'want to be' etc.

but what it never does, can never do, will never happen - is be any form of change of sex...

I totally agree that some people really do believe that they are the opposite sex... but then the average three year old child may well go through periods of being convinced that they are a dog / cat / astronaut / fireman / etc - a belief does not become reality...

As soon as we come to an understanding that sex and gender can never change, but that there are those who have reasons why they believe they are the opposite sex (boy in a girl's body / etc.) then the sooner we can:

• stop oppressing women
• start offering valuable help to those who have these confusions or mental health issues - we can start to treat them as they need - not with barbaric surgery / chemicals that destroy their lives...

Of course it does.

Interesting.

So while fighting and arguing hard against women’s rights to male free spaces, you are also fighting for women’s rights? Which rights are those then?

While you’re at it there are a few key questions which you may have forgotten to address. I’m sure your answers would be much appreciated.

a person who is confused / delusional / has mental health issues / has some other ulterior motive in pretending to be the opposite sex.

No trans people are not confused. They are not delusional. They do not have “ulterior motives”, they are not “pretending”.

Being trans is a real axis of human diversity with a durable biological underpinning. It cannot be changed through therapies and there is nothing inherently wrong with it whatsoever. It’s just different and different is ok.

With the right support/ healthcare trans people can live perfectly healthy and full lives without mental health challenges.

Anyone who seriously believes that sex can be anything other than male or female - or who seriously believes that you can change sex must by definition be confused / delusional / have mental health issues - or be living a lie with some ulterior motive...

you state that Being trans is a real axis of human diversity with a durable biological underpinning. Other than 'real axis of human diversity' having no substantive meaning - there is no biological underpinning to the concept of being trans. There isn't a single person anywhere in the whole world, in the whole of history who has ever changed from being a man to being a woman - or vice versa. However much surgery, however many chemicals, however they dress / look / speak / etc. they will still be a man.

If all that 'trans' meant was a set of people who bumbled along confused and unhappy with their sex, then you might argue that they are just different and that is okay - but as a compassionate society we should look after such people and give them the ability to come to terms with their natal sex and biology.

However over the last few decades it has increasingly meant more than that - it has meant men - the dominant sex gaining access to places they should not be - it has meant bullying of women and the vulnerable, it has meant lies and deceit, oppression and violence, it has distorted society and taken us to a place we should never be where 51% of our population are under threat of eradication of identity by a small subset of men with ulterior motives - so no, different in this instance is not okay - lies and deceit are not okay, violence and oppression are not okay.

It cannot be changed through therapies - wrong, it is a mental health condition - and there has been clear evidence that e.g. for those who are pre-pubertal and who have been lead to believe that somehow their mental place and health is a result of being 'born in the wrong body' - for a very high % of them, going through puberty reverses much of what they felt as they come to terms with their correct sex and body. - The leading of children into hormones and body butchery will be seen as one of the biggest child abuse scandals of our era.

there is nothing inherently wrong with it whatsoever Actually there is - there is never anything right about living lives based on lies - the deceit that says you can change sex or gender leads people into operations and chemical treatments which wreck their bodies - by pushing a damaging agenda the 'trans movement' has harmed many people and stopped them from taking the route they might otherwise have chosen - to treat the mental health issues etc.

With the right support/ healthcare trans people can live perfectly healthy and full lives without mental health challenges. Correct - but that support is treatment of the mental health challenges, it is not to lie to them and society, it is not to pretend that something can happen that is impossible, it is not to oppress women to validate a lie, it is not to abuse children...

but as a compassionate society we should look after such people and give them the ability to come to terms with their natal sex

No . This is based
on the false and transphobic premise that being trans is a) wrong and b) curable.
Its exactly like historical beliefs that being gay was wrong/ a mental illness and could be cured.

This is profoundly wrong and harmful to actual living people. It’s not ok.

@Tandora - you are perffectly welcome to have opinions, ones what may differ from the general view on this forum. However, whats not welcome and is really very rude and childish - is to respond to a long, well thought out and reasoned post with the words

"Thats false"

You can say it's false or wrong or whatever you like - but you have to say WHY it is false and present arguments and evidence about why it is so.

This is a good faith discussion, enter into it fully will you? Otherwise you just look childish and petulant.

nope - I can evidence every bit of that - the evidence has been laid out on mumsnet many times - and is available all over the internet...

what evidence do you have that a man can become a woman / that a woman can change sex to a man - none, because there is none, because it is not possible...

but I will accept your comment as the desperate last fling of someone whose argument has failed on all counts!