To cut holiday short

[ToddlerSleep]

I’m on a very child friendly fully catered 4-night UK break with DS 6 (nearly 7) and DS just turned 4, and I’m not coping with their behaviour. DH is a great and involved dad and couldn’t come due to work. We knew this would be the case and therefore chose this particular place as there’s so much for children to do and should in theory have worked. We are due to go home on Friday, but WIBU to go home tomorrow? Below is a snapshot of 6 hours of my day and it’s been like this from morning til night since Monday. Have I brought them up badly? Or is this just normal behaviour from them and I am being a useless parent? Please be gentle with me. It’s day 3 and I’m now in tears.

I had two more 1-night trips planned with them in the summer holidays and I have told them we are no longer doing them due to their behaviour. I am regretting doing this holiday and had I known beforehand how they would behave, there’s no way I would have done it.

It’s absolutely relentless. I put in clear boundaries and follow through with consequences eg taking away toys, time out, missing activities that we had planned, and it has no impact. They say sorry and it won’t happen again, and 5 mins later it happens again.

1. In the morning they have to be asked several times to please take their pyjamas off, please come brush your teeth, please put your socks on etc.
2. while this is taking place, DS6 won’t stop teasing DS4 despite being told several times to stop. DS4 gets upset, I have to step in.
3. DSs then refuse to put their shoes on themselves, they are too tired, it’s too hard etc. I stand my ground and in the end stand outside the flat and tell them to just get on with it.
4. We walk to breakfast (2 mins away) and DS6 is teasing DS4 again
5. We get to the dining room and there’s an argument about who will sit with whom
6. I get them their drinks and then go to get their food. When I’m back with food I find that DS4 has had an accident with his drink resulting in it spilt everywhere.
7. While eating there’s more teasing.
8. We walk back to our flat and there’s more teasing.
9. We get to our flat and there’s an argument about who will open the door.
10. We then go to an activity, more whinging about shoes, and there’s more teasing on the way. DS4 keeps running off as well to whatever takes his fancy on the way. I have to keep running after him so I don’t lose sight of him.
11. It’s now lunchtime and both say they are hungry but won’t eat the food I have for them and are whinging. It’s normally their favourite. DS4 keep running off, DS6 whinging about whatever.
12. We go to watch a show, which I know DS6 loves. DS6 constantly whinging he doesn’t want to see it and I had promised him we won’t see it (I never did), DS4 making whinging noises and I don’t know why.
13. Get to the show, whinging continues and now we also have an argument about who sits on which seat.
14. Show is over, kids had loved it, more teasing on the way back to the flat which I have to break up. DS4 keeps running off.
15. Another argument at the door about who will open it.
16. I need to repack my rucksack while DS6 keeps teasing DS4 and eventually he is lying on top of DS4 tickling him while DS4 is crying. I keep having to step in over and over again to break it up while trying to concentrate on my rucksack.
17. Off to the next activity 5 mins walk away. More whinging about them having to put on their shoes themselves. I realise when I get to the activity that I have forgotten something key to pack into my rucksack so we have to walk back.
18. DS4 was trailing behind us, then suddenly has disappeared and we can’t find him anywhere. 20 minutes of running around in tears trying to find him. Activity is now missed.
19. I want to go back to the flat, DSs just won’t listen and come with me, so it takes me 10 minutes to get them to move. DS4 again keep running off, DS6 is teasing again.
20. Once in the flat, DS4 has a 30 minute stand off to get undressed so I can shower him. DS6 also has to be asked 10 times but at least he does it.

Don’t say please, say thanks.
(So you’re not pleading with them, you’re thanking them in expectation of it being done).
e.g. “DS6 do your velcro straps up, thanks” in a pleasant, how lovely I can trust you to do this tone of voice. (Walk away and let him get on with it while you brush your teeth or something).
Learnt this trick as a teacher and it works nearly every time.

You have told them you are not doing the other trips later in the summer. You absolutely have to go through with this threat even if you are regretting saying it now.
They need consequences for their behaviour that you see through. No empty threats at all.

I would stay. But their behaviour sounds draining.
I think you need to have more consequences for the teasing. As for opening the door, it's either take it in turns without arguing or you are the only one who does it. If they won't put their shoes on, either make it into a game (who can put their shoes on before Mum? Not each other as it might start another argument!) If that doesn't work, settle down and do something for yourself inside (read a book if you have one) and say 'what a shame we can't go out today, no one is listening'.

I'm not blaming either child particularly but I was the younger child continuously teased by the older child. It was relentless. There was no jealousy - it was because they could and they enjoyed it. I felt powerless and not protected by my mother. I misbehaved, then got punished. In later life I asked my mother why she hadn't dealt with it...she said it was because it was easier just to get on with it.
I often feel her lack of dealing with it spoilt my childhood and changed my personality.

You really need to stop your 6 year old. Severe punishments....it is not just teasing, it is bullying. How would you react if an older child at school was doing this to your DS and the school just paid lip service to it?

I haven't read through all the replies so apologies if I have missed information.

Just wanted to say, I feel you! I have taken mine away solo the last two years (single parent) and it is hard.
Last week on holiday by Wednesday I did wonder if we should go home because it seemed ridiculous behaviour and overwhelming. Which helped me to see, it wasn't just me that was overwhelmed - my kids had been too by all the activities and entertainment!

From your original post I know you are on a dining plan so you need to do that but otherwise may see if you can have a day away from activities and entertainment? I am not sure where you are but if there is a beach nearby (and you think they would be safe) then both of mine were brilliant on the beach, much more settled and much happier with each other. Though I didn't have them running off so I can see it might not work for you!

If no beach, just walks and so on?

I also can understand taking the park away but then you have the frustration of being stuck in the flat and their energy levels just going up and up.

It's such a balance!

I hope you can get through the last few days and if not then don't feel bad if you have to come back early.

Consequences aren't for cancelling trips later in the summer, it's too far away for them to relate what the consequence is for. Kids are like dogs in that respect, you have to react immediately or else there's no point.

The op has to just power through grin and bear it and have a massive effort to work on boundaries once home.

Yes I thought this too. This behaviour needs to have a zero tolerance approach and be nipped in the bud now.

My two (aged 4 and 7) were similar on holiday and it was so frustrating. I think it's the excitement plus heat plus sleeping in a strange place just sends them crazy.

We even had the spilling water at breakfast and winding each other up so I feel your pain.

I had to just lower my expectations of the holiday and let them spend time in the soft play for my own sanity.

Try to get the older one onside and talk to him like he and you are a team and how little ones can be annoying. Make sure there are lots of 'big boy' advantages for him and you two can eyeroll at baby behaviour. It can encourage him to leave the 'baby' alone. It works with mine and their little cousin.

The door handle just sounds like a huge novelty for the kids. Can't you let each of them go in separately - oldest first, then close the door and the youngest open it again? DS recently spent a year in Berlin for his year abroad at uni, we'd lived there when he was a very small child and I asked him what things he remembered from that time - it was the door mechanisms on the U-bahn and the bells on the trams! These are the sort of things that fascinate small boys. This may well be the first thing they tell people about when recounting the holiday back home or what they remember about it years later. Also, this may not work for you, but I always used to instigate an element of competition in the getting ready process - who can get their shoes on first, who can be standing by the door first ready to go out? My biggest take out is that you say your boys love it there so while it might not be the best holiday you've ever had, you are obviously doing something right.

Don't do too many activities. They tens to want lots of down time.

Different strokes I would have hated this as would my DCs why would you go to Butlins to stay in bed unless ill ? My advice upthread was completely the opposite.

Sounds like a stern talking to is needed especially to the 6yr old. You're the parent - they listen to you.

I find if we stay in the house they get restless and every little thing niggles them and they bicker more so I go out as much as i can. There's more to occupy them and keep them distracted from bickering with each other. It's better for them to be running about in a park screaming at the top of their voice than in the house.

If they start the he done that last time, i want to do it this time type of conversation these get shut down straight away. I can't be doing with that type of nonsense.

no wonder you are exhausted you have set yourself up as police, catering, care and entertainment coordinator and have high expectations leading to disappointment.

For your own benefit try to calm this down. I bet they hear do this do that do the other all the time and then hear nothing it’s just noise in the end and exhausting you. Lower your instructions and your expectation for entertainment, one activity a day is plenty.

Start by saying eg with we will get ice cream today and play at the park then keep it neutral lots of praise lots of distraction eg count the birds you can spot on the way to breakfast, one rucksack, one child in each hand, one ice cream each, one happy photo before everyone is overwhelmed, dirty and naughty, low demand everything except zero tolerance for elder child teasing, any teasing he has to hold your hand and sit quietly for two minutes, just have free play in safe place in the afternoons. Don’t get involved in debates and pressure from the kids just say eg DC says I want to swim too after the park just say oooh yes it would be great to swim today as well I can imagine that would be a lot of fun and we’d do this and that and you would be a great swimmer we’ll do that another day soon

sleep the most important part for all, low demand about getting ready for bed just into bed with clean teeth and tomorrow is another day 😊

At sounds to me that at no point have you stopped and given them a massive bollocking.

This sounds relatively normal behaviour to me, and as others have suggested you need to pick your battles. But I also felt quite exhausted by everything you listed, the coming and going all day. It's possible that they are also tired, it's a lot for them to take in, and need a slow day with one scheduled activity at most.

As for the teasing, I'd usually completely ignore it and try distraction techniques.

You have told them you are not doing the other trips later in the summer. You absolutely have to go through with this threat even if you are regretting saying it now.

They literally will not care!
6 and 4 happy to stay home go to park
Something immediate if really necessary.

This.

Also binge watch old editions of Super Nanny to get ideas about how to reward good behavior - most neurotypical children cotton on quickly.

The six year old repeatedly asking why they were not going to the park is a bit “hmm” to me. Does he understand your responses to be “no is no until mum caves in after we go on and on”.

You might want to go home and work on all this prior to the next trip.

Good luck. We talk about teething, we talk about potty training, there are bits of raising children that we forget to talk about.

Can you take one kid each and do separate things? Not ideal I know but maybe will take the pressure off.

She's on her own with them. 🙄

I have to say, gently, your parenting does sound rather ineffectual. I’ve had six children and at age 4 in a strange place there is no way any of them would have had any option of running off as they would have been holding my hand, no discussion. My six and eight year olds do still.

Whining often happens if it’s gotten them what they wanted previously, so you need to accept this HAS happened previously and is a consequence you have to face…you can change the dynamics if you want to: to be very matter of fact and actually follow through with things, but keep them simple. At that age impulse control can be poor, they don’t really understand grounding in the evening due to behaviour in the morning…it just keeps everyone’s mood low. Go for immediate consequences and firmly disappointed tone and then put that moment away and be positive about the next moment.

My adult children say I’ve always been firm but fair, and they always knew this from early childhood…we have always had loving relationships even during teen years. Firm boundaries/expectations doesn’t mean you aren’t also a kind, gentle and loving parent. They keep children safe and secure.

Finally, a lot of it IS just parenting multiple young children, you’ll feel more weary if you keep a running score of behaviour, it will probably also be negatively affecting your response to them, they feed off our emotional energy. Let yesterday go, let this morning go, maybe instead tkeep a running score of all the times today they are sweet, loving , funny…it may brighten all of your days.

It's tough at that age - there was a four year gap between my girls and DD1 at least was very well behaved, so it was never quite as bad - but even today the bickering still drives me mad. My two nieces have the same age gap as your boys though and they can be very hard work. They tend to be OK for me, but not so much for their parents and nan but I parent them the same my I parent my own kids when they are with me.

BIL and SIL tend to go a bit more down the gentle parenting route (with the occasional gasket blowing) and have constantly done stuff with the kids, so they are used to being permanently entertained, which means their behaviour can really kick off when they are not doing something.

Our parenting style is much more along the benign neglect / pick your battles line for most things (like food, or helping them get dressed etc) but the three things we were incredibly strict on, and set expectations very early was an insistence on politeness, zero tolerance for non-consensual physical fighting or verbal teasing and behaviour in public (no screeching or inappropriate shouting etc) - all of these were met with swift rebuke and consequences, but because we were really relaxed about everything else, they knew that when we got cross over these things, we meant it.

I remember being on holiday with BIL and SIL - they just had the one 2 year old boy and my youngest was 18 months - I was outside the house and I could hear my youngest crying - there was a steep stone step into the kitchen and I was worried she'd fallen. BIL was holding her and when I asked what happened he said that she'd bitten her sister and when he told her off she'd started crying. He was really surprised when I took her off him and marched straight upstairs with her, sat, her on the bed and told her she was in a time out for biting. She could sit there for two minutes and then apologise to her sister and if she didn't apologise she would sit there until she did. He was shocked when I went back downstairs and said she was in a timeout. It worked and she never bit her again.

For things like getting dressed, putting shoes on etc, I turn it into a game - use their natural rivalry to help you and join in "Right, time to get dressed - whoever does it first gets....<insert small treat of choice>" or combine with other things "Whoever gets their shoes on first gets to open the door when we get back" and for whinging and whining, I use to use distraction techniques like playing eye spy or completely ignoring the one that was whining and having a fun conversation with the one that wasn't.

I also used to tease them back - so if they were moaning that they were too tired to put their shoes on, I'd do it for them but as I was doing it I would say things like "Aw - do you need me to put your shoes on like a little baby", or if they were being particularly difficult and I was getting really annoyed "Well if you are too tired to put your shoes on, we'd better stay in and you can go back to bed to rest"

One of the main recurring problems is your 6yo teasing your 4yo. I do think this should be the main area of focus (aside from putting your 4yo on reins as that’s a quick fix).

Lots of the punishments apply equally to both. I think 6yo needs his own consequences and it must apply directly to teasing / unacceptable behaviour towards sibling. It sounds outside of normal sibling interactions and pretty much constant torment for the 4yo. It is unclear whether the 4yo’s behaviour is a direct result of this teasing or whether his issues are his alone.

I would tell the 6yo that his behaviour is essentially bullying and watch videos showing the consequences. It sounds like he’s making life very unpleasant for the 4yo. and Id wonder if he does this at school and upsets kids there as well.

If there's nothing booked then surely to only thing to aim for is meal times?

I'd honestly be helping the 6yr old a little as well I think if it would help to get out.

He's still young &on holiday!

Lots of normal behaviour here - you need to be firm.

I wouldn’t go home. It won’t teach them anything