To cut holiday short

[ToddlerSleep]

I’m on a very child friendly fully catered 4-night UK break with DS 6 (nearly 7) and DS just turned 4, and I’m not coping with their behaviour. DH is a great and involved dad and couldn’t come due to work. We knew this would be the case and therefore chose this particular place as there’s so much for children to do and should in theory have worked. We are due to go home on Friday, but WIBU to go home tomorrow? Below is a snapshot of 6 hours of my day and it’s been like this from morning til night since Monday. Have I brought them up badly? Or is this just normal behaviour from them and I am being a useless parent? Please be gentle with me. It’s day 3 and I’m now in tears.

I had two more 1-night trips planned with them in the summer holidays and I have told them we are no longer doing them due to their behaviour. I am regretting doing this holiday and had I known beforehand how they would behave, there’s no way I would have done it.

It’s absolutely relentless. I put in clear boundaries and follow through with consequences eg taking away toys, time out, missing activities that we had planned, and it has no impact. They say sorry and it won’t happen again, and 5 mins later it happens again.

1. In the morning they have to be asked several times to please take their pyjamas off, please come brush your teeth, please put your socks on etc.
2. while this is taking place, DS6 won’t stop teasing DS4 despite being told several times to stop. DS4 gets upset, I have to step in.
3. DSs then refuse to put their shoes on themselves, they are too tired, it’s too hard etc. I stand my ground and in the end stand outside the flat and tell them to just get on with it.
4. We walk to breakfast (2 mins away) and DS6 is teasing DS4 again
5. We get to the dining room and there’s an argument about who will sit with whom
6. I get them their drinks and then go to get their food. When I’m back with food I find that DS4 has had an accident with his drink resulting in it spilt everywhere.
7. While eating there’s more teasing.
8. We walk back to our flat and there’s more teasing.
9. We get to our flat and there’s an argument about who will open the door.
10. We then go to an activity, more whinging about shoes, and there’s more teasing on the way. DS4 keeps running off as well to whatever takes his fancy on the way. I have to keep running after him so I don’t lose sight of him.
11. It’s now lunchtime and both say they are hungry but won’t eat the food I have for them and are whinging. It’s normally their favourite. DS4 keep running off, DS6 whinging about whatever.
12. We go to watch a show, which I know DS6 loves. DS6 constantly whinging he doesn’t want to see it and I had promised him we won’t see it (I never did), DS4 making whinging noises and I don’t know why.
13. Get to the show, whinging continues and now we also have an argument about who sits on which seat.
14. Show is over, kids had loved it, more teasing on the way back to the flat which I have to break up. DS4 keeps running off.
15. Another argument at the door about who will open it.
16. I need to repack my rucksack while DS6 keeps teasing DS4 and eventually he is lying on top of DS4 tickling him while DS4 is crying. I keep having to step in over and over again to break it up while trying to concentrate on my rucksack.
17. Off to the next activity 5 mins walk away. More whinging about them having to put on their shoes themselves. I realise when I get to the activity that I have forgotten something key to pack into my rucksack so we have to walk back.
18. DS4 was trailing behind us, then suddenly has disappeared and we can’t find him anywhere. 20 minutes of running around in tears trying to find him. Activity is now missed.
19. I want to go back to the flat, DSs just won’t listen and come with me, so it takes me 10 minutes to get them to move. DS4 again keep running off, DS6 is teasing again.
20. Once in the flat, DS4 has a 30 minute stand off to get undressed so I can shower him. DS6 also has to be asked 10 times but at least he does it.

Loving all the ‘just be firm and tell them to stop bickering’, ‘keep hold of the 4 year old all the time’ type advice! Tell me you’ve never dealt with two bickering, strong willed siblings on your own without saying it out loud. 🙄
”Have croissants and berries for breakfast in bed instead of going to the buffet’ has got to be a MN classic😂And you wonder why MN has a reputation for being full of smug, middle class mummies!

It is absolutely relentless and draining dealing with children like this and I’m so impressed that the OP is so patient. I’d pack up, go home and chalk it up to experience.

*However, my two are both neurodivergent.

The “teasing” is more like dopamine seeking - knowing they shouldn’t do it and wanting to be good for mummy, but seeking a reaction from the other for excitement and even when told not to, the impulse to do it is too strong. The other child is then super-reactive and all hell breaks loose. So child one gets their dopamine, child two explodes, reacts and retaliates and child one responds and so on.

This is my life. It’s not bad behaviour, it’s dysregulation.*

My two are 12 and 14, and are both neurodivergent however while dysregulation might explain the behaviour, the behaviour still needs to be managed because they need to function outside of the home where people frankly don’t care what underlies it.

So open defiance, picking at each other, not following safety rules all need addressed, in conjunction with supports that help with sensory overload, deal with boredom, meet the need for dopamine etc. A combination of helping them to regulate and helping them get on with the day.

How does this work when OP is alone with 2 children?

I'd do less transitions for sure,cut activities and put a movie on and snuggle up with them,they sound overwhelmed and dysregulated and regressing as out of routine and finding it too much.my DD is currently the same with needing me to put her socks on,it's asking to be connected and babied abit to reassure them,it's incredibly annoying when trying to get out,but sitting then on your lap and going it nicely once may help them feel safer and not need it next time.
Definitely enforce hand holding for any runners,tell them they need to get safe and holiday park rules are safety first etc.
Holidays are exhausting with kids,it's harder than being at home so downsize expectations and do less activities.
tell then if they can't cope with it and behave to holiday park rules-the rules not your rules-they will have to go home.
praise for good behaviour don't forget.
Cut out breakfast/,eating out maybe,buffets with that age is really hard and spillage inevitable.

Haven’t read the thread yet but useless parent is a phrase that should be scrapped from most mums’ playbook. They are seriously tough ages to keep occupied and or go on holidays with x

This
Do stop giving them choices but be firm and kind with instructions
And even though they’re on holiday they should understand safety for themselves and those around them ie to walk sensibly going to and from activities in case there’s any traffic (not sure where you’re located but I think it’s relevant anyway)
If they kick off in the flat, consider time out for both - just for a few moments to endorse matters.

Oh thank goodness someone else said this. I was scrolling down thinking old someone say this is just life with kids!

I think all these booked activities are probably putting a lot of pressure on.you and the children. Getting out of the house during the hols/weekends is often the worst part of the day for us (DD6 and DS12 - but has learning disabilities so functioning at similar level to DD). You're going in and out a lot - that would create a lot of conflict with my two.

I think that it would help you cope better if you could reframe their behaviour and think of it as they're not coping rather than choosing to misbehave.

I think that the spilt drinks etc is common for young, excited DC. With the door I would just say that you are doing the door from now on.

If you want to go home then go home. Sorry that your holiday has been such a disappointment.

So you’ve packed and told them you are leaving? I think you have to follow through.

It also sounds like there’s some great but gentle parenting going on. Too many discussions not enough authority which seems to be needed with your kids. Could you stay for the day but go home before bedtime?

One of my children was like this so when he woke up one morning I had removed all of his toys and all screens and remotes. I excitedly told him that all music played in the car will be my choice, everything we do for the next few days will be exactly what I want to do, no playgrounds or fun for him until he earns those things with respectful/ good behaviours. For instance he needs to do specific behaviours like get dressed in under 5 minutes using a timer.
It sounds severe and slightly unhealthy to do such a thing but instantly I regained my power in the relationship and my son was thoughtful about his actions. I would do it again in a heartbeat if his behaviour gets out of hand again. While I was doing it I kept reminding him that he will see we have lots more fun when everyone is kind and helpful and that is something that has stuck with him in a positive way.

Last day rules. They each hold your hand to and fro. Mam opens the door etc. Mam chooses seats. A race to get ready and put shoes on - or just do it (it's a big ask for some 4 year olds even in home time routines). Lots of praise where possible. You know the trigger points now so I think you can reset and manage them.

I think your expectations are too high considering the circumstances. Tired, stressed children with a stressed mummy and no daddy.

Points 1-9 were fairly unremarkable. The 4 year old running off is the most important thing to address. If the older one is teasing, split them up or are you all in one room?

Let them get themselves ready and help them with shoes if they need it, why does it need to be a standoff?

Be less rigid with activities and let them go to the playground to burn off the energy rather than have to sit at a show. Tell them behaviour expectations beforehand, especially 4 year old not running off.

You are in charge so allocate the door opener, etc.

I really feel for you.

DS saw a child psychologist for a while. He was really struggling with changes to routine, and holidays (whether at home or away from home) were a nightmare.

Psychologist suggested drawing up a plan for each day, and getting DS involved. Not letting him have free reign, but an input. For example, tomorrow were are going to go to the shop and to the playground- what shall we do in the morning, and what shall we do in the afternoon?

Or if away on holiday- literally draw up a timetable as if we were at school, showing times of activities and meals.

I was a bit sceptical but it did seem to help him see what was expected of him, and also got him excited for things. He could see from the timetable that if he messed around, we’d be late and he would miss the activity.

I use gentle parenting and I also have neurodivergent twins (now teenagers). I absolutely understand the pain.

The fact you've packed the car up but are still dithering about whether to go suggests to me that you don't always follow through with consequences.

Kids absolutely press your buttons, for all of the reasons that PP mentioned. It can be exhausting. But it sounds as if you're not helping yourself because you're getting sucked into discussions and debates, and providing opportunities for bad behaviour.

Your 4 yr old shouldn't have the chance to run off because he either has reins on or he's holding your hand.

Opening the door - one opens it on the way out, the other opens it on the way back. No discussions. Don't get sucked in.

You need to be firm, clear, and consistent. If you say you're going to do something - do it. Don't threaten to go home and then change your mind. If you say there's going to be a consequence, there needs to be a consequence.

There doesn't need to be shouting or raised voices but there needs to be clear expectations, and ways for the children to succeed. If your DS takes 2 hours+ to get dressed at home, he's not suddenly going to do it in half the time in strange surroundings just because you want him to.

I wonder also whether you've built this holiday up in your head to be a wonderful adventure where you all have lots of lovely fun whereas parenting with two youngsters is often just about getting through a warzone!

@ToddlerSleep all normal and although you have a huge list it’s just really kids being kids. .
Yes they are trying to push boundaries a few times .Tbh op they sound bored. .
You also don’t sound like you can handle the kids on your own. Who usually does the parenting ?

Most others have said too many transitions why are you back and forthing to your apartment necsictating shoes on/ off everytime ? I would go to breakfast fully packed for that mornings' activity. I would take both up to buffet with me so they got to choose their breakfast. Linger then straight on to playground or whatever. I used to take sandwiches with me but you may prefer to go back for lunch- I would never ( even now as an adult) go home if had less than 1.5 hour there.

This kind of shows that punishments don't work - not going to the playground isn't a logical consequence to a 6 year old for playing up, as demonstrated by him not understanding. So it's not going to change his behaviour going forward.

I do feel for you though, my son is 6 and I've been holidaying with him just the 2 of us since he was 3 - there have definitely been days like that where I just want to say right, we're going home and never coming away again. But of course that wouldn't achieve anything. I think in your case, going home a day early just for your own sanity is absolutely fine. Then have a think about some of the advice on this thread and what might work for you x

I still stand by children need a firm rein from about 1 year old. You need to be very firm but fair. If they grow up with this method before they are even aware, they are far less likely to disobey. I was afraid of my father because I knew he meant business. If he put in a boundary and I broke it, there was a consequence i.e. no treat for that week. If my mother tried to discipline me, I would laugh at her. Why? Because she tried to be kind to me and reason. She would shout, plead, and threaten but I knew that I could push, push, and push those boundaries with no consequence.

I think this is fairly common on holiday, the excitement snd change in routine makes them crazy.

I agree with taking turns for choosing who sits where and opening doors etc

I also agree with pick your battles - yes long term you want them to be independent but if you have to moss showers or put their shoes on on holiday it doesn't matter

The only thing that I think really isn't on from what you've said is the teasing, relentless teasing especially of a younger child is bullying and not on. But agree its hard to punish when you're not in your own home. Could yoh do something like give your youngest a treat and a cuddle every time he gets teased to 'make him feel better', might stop him getting upset and running off and the eldest might realise that being mean has consequences

I'd explain to your kids how it's going to work and if they can't behave all morning then you're going home in the afternoon. Pick a couple of key things like no moaning, no teasing, no running off and ignore the rest. And then give up if this doesn't improve.

Yes agreed, can't stand that people let their younger children be emotional punching bags for the older one.

And the 4 year old running off. You know that he does this so you need to be anticipating it not waiting for it. Why is he ever in the situation where it is possible to do it? If you're loading the car strap him in first. Come on Op I don't want to have a go at you but don't be such a wet blanket, it's so incredibly dangerous.

Just go home, they've had enough warnings

Butlin’s is very exciting 😁 I’d take the youngest to the buffet with you and leave big boy in charge of the table. Not sure where they’re sleeping but have one in with you and one in the other room so they get respite from each other. I’d help them get dressed tbh and I’d get ready for swimming before leaving the chalet but get showered and dressed at the pool after as it is easier. I still lay out outfits for my older dc on holidays if we’re rushing. Do what’s easiest for you as well - if they’re running off and arguing just stick them in the playground or softplay and leave them to it for half an hour.

I’m sure it’s terrible mn parenting but I’d bribe with money for the arcade/ gift shop if they are good and I’d also be far more assertive- no please put your shoes on darling with a 15 minute explanation of why shoes are important and the history of cobbling from me 😁

Sounds very stressful but they sound overwhelmed by the planning and activities. Too much choice and discussion. Do they sleep and eat well or is that a battle too? Depending how far you are travelling could you give them the morning to just go out, wander and play as you go then decide?Or head home late afternoon . Keep the day really simple and informal. Agree you need to keep the 4yo on a tight handhold or buggy/reins if he liable to bolt.

They just sound like typical excited children on holiday. I don't think they sound as though they are particularly badly behaved, although obviously difficult for one adult to manage. Sorry no useful advice, but I had similar when I took my two boys away on my own.

I feel exhausted just reading your update. It’s hard dealing with this on your own. I honestly think going home is the reasonable thing to do here, but I know I’d struggle to go through with it in your position.

Remembering a couple of things I’ve picked up from useful parenting advice sources. One is the idea of “body doubling” a known support tactic for people with ADHD, including adults. They don’t necessarily need someone to be making them do things, they just need company and that keeps them on task. For example, my DD 11 will go to brush her teeth but then get distracted and if left to it you’ll check twenty minutes later and she’ll have organised all her hair accessories very nicely but not actually brushed her teeth. If I just go a sit in the bathroom with her she’ll have brushed her teeth in three minutes and be ready for the next thing. Young children have similar traits to ADHDers due to brain development stages and will (usually) grow out of them, but you can use the same tactic while they’re young. I know it is exhausting having to actually watch over them for everything, but it will be less exhausting than two hours of pain while they don’t get ready.

You could try putting a song on and they have to get dressed before it’s finished. Pick one they like and call it the getting dressed song. Dance round with them, maybe getting dressed yourself at the same time, turn it into a game or a race.

The other thing that has always stuck with me came from a parenting course I went on, it’s the point that “what you pay attention to is what you get more of”. Basically kids crave attention, even bad attention, so if playing up gets your attention that is what they’ll do. A PP mentioned dopamine seeking, which could very much be true. Ideally you ignore the bad behaviour and reward the good. If they squabble over opening the door, don’t acknowledge the child whose turn it isn’t, just focus on the one who is doing it. If the 6yo is teasing the 4yo, make a big fuss of the 4yo without even acknowledging the 6yo. If the 4yo old runs off obviously you have to intervene to keep him safe, but just firmly take his had and march him along in silence or while chatting to the 6yo. Just don’t give them any attention for the bad behaviour and really praise the good.

Good luck OP. It honestly sounds like hell and I really feel for you.

Every time he winges he’s gets your full on attention for as long as he likes.

You explain and then give him a short ‘No’ and immediate consequences - If you ask me again X will happen -

It could be anything every child has a price - lose 5 mins of xbox, then another, then another - all you say is 5 mins 10 mins 15 mins - it’s then his choice when to stop - this only takes a few times for him to get it.

Eventfully you only need to give time!