For thinking the details of my holiday are none of work's business

[Truffleshuffle84]

I work for a medium size company in he UK

Staff handbook says all leave must be agreed by your line manager and will be approved on the basis of business need and general staff numbers/ work coverage etc - all fine, been here for 8 years, never an issue. I'm in a team of 5 and collectively with our line manager we manage to get holidays to suit everyone etc.

Line manager left in June and we've got a new one from a different department, no issues, we all get on well.

But, I've asked for a week off in the autumn for the school holidays. LM replied asking when I was away and where was I going, I thought it was just a casual passing interest type question, replied with details of our plans.

They've now rejected my leave request because they don't think I'll be fit for work Monday returning from Tenerife on a Sunday on a flight that lands at 10.30pm (at an airport 20 mins from home).

I've not replied yet but AIBU for thinking it's up to me how I spend my annual leave and it's up to me to decide whether something is achievable whilst being ready for work the next day?

That's absolutely crazy.
It's not for them to judge that you'll be fit for work, you've said you'll be there.
Christ, what next, you all have to wear trackers so they know where everyone is and what they're up to the night before work? And they'd have to have sleep trackers too, in case you didn't get your 7hrs.
They can discipline you if you aren't there, not pre-empt it. Take it higher OP.

Surgeons work all hours of the day and night, and the students go 24 or 36 hours without sleep.

clearly everyone from now on is going to answer ‘sitting at home’ to this question anyway.

It depends what you do. If you have a job such as a surgeon, nurse in intensive care, tube driver, air traffic controller etc. then she has a point. If I were her, I would be thinking, touchdown at 22.30, an hour to collect luggage, go through passport control and collect your car, then the drive home. Add a possible flight delay, tired children with school in the morning, it would appear you have no safety net in your schedule. I wouldn’t say anything, but I would wonder if you would show up for work on time. Having said that, DC has landed from a cancelled / rebooked 24-hour delayed long haul flight and gone straight into the office, but no DC to look after.

They have basically said they expect you to call off sick on Monday because you will be tired

I do wish people would stop stating this as some sort of gospel proof HR are out to get them. HR are there to protect the business, yes. That also means stopping managers (at all levels right to the top) from doing stupid things that affect staff morale and/or put the company at risk. Sometimes risking my own job in the process, (not all SLT/Chief Execs like being told they are wrong, funnily enough) And if you think trade unions always act with integrity and their members best interests at heart, I could tell you some stories that might surprise you.

Yes OP, do check if manager has the right to use your flight time as a reason to decline, I very much doubt they do. They'd hate me anyway ....I once went to straight to work after landing at Heathrow at 6am, off a flight from New Zealand. Yep, 28+ hours of flying! I wasn't perhaps the most productive I've ever been but I got through the day fine, had no complaints from my boss and then had the weekend to recover.

Put a grievance in and say that, unless she is checking when everyone else is going to bed at night, she is singling you out for unfair treatment.

I disagree and know people in those professions and have seen them called into work with v little sleep, they are used to it. Those jobs have policies in place and people in those safety critical jobs are professional enough to be aware of their limitations. they also have drug and alcohol policies and that’s why they are usually well paid and well aware of their personal responsibilities.

She does not have a point.

Absolutely crackers. You could be up till all hours knocking back Merlot and pissing around on Mumsnet every night of the week, unless someone's tasked with knocking on everybody's door to make sure all staff are safely in their jammies with a mug of cocoa by 10 pm.

Jeez they must live a very small boring life! What about all the people who fly in on the red eye from New York and go straight to work for the day?
Never heard anything so ridiculous.

Also actual pilots that fly long haul!! 😂

Bonkers!!
I rarely go to bed before midnight and I regularly have disturbed sleep due to DS.
I’d be absolutely no worse off than usual arriving home at that time.

ok, so flight could be delayed I guess. But many things could happen that prevent someone from going to work and you can’t mitigate them all.

Absolutely. If HR agree then they need to make this a standard policy. "Employees must be in bed by a certain time on a school night." 😂

We're about to land at 10:30pm and we'll likely be in the car at 11:30pm and home before midnight. I often go to bed after midnight and am in work early every day, bright and breezy. I'd be fine if this was a concerned comment, e.g. just being aware that we can't extend your leave or allow you to WFH on Monday as two others are off. But rightly I'd be pretty annoyed if my annual leave was refused on a hypothetical issue (unless I had form for not working after a night flight)

Maybe you should have just told a white lie, and said Sunday evening. They might be worried you could be delayed which is very possible.

Just email back and say you've managed to swap the flight so now you return Saturday afternoon.

Cheeky fuckers.

I get that, I suppose I'm taking issue with the idea that people can do what they like and as long as it's off the clock it's nothing to do with the employer.

In one industry, at least for a short period, I know of at least one employer that went through a phase of auditing peoples" travel arrangements before duty - one extreme case of stupidity (way less than 8 hours available for rest prior to signing on) resulted in one individual getting their P45 and there were a few written warnings for others. Union could do nothing for them.

This is very much an "it depends on the job and what is in the contract".

This is crazy!

That’s mad!! Never heard the like of it. Unless you are living on an oil rig or on call 24 hours a day, then what you do off the clock is your own business.
I’m shocked but thanks for telling me that, I had no idea.

This.

I would add "please can you confirm if this also applies to returning from dinner, a concert, sports training or similar, and whether this means there's a set bedtime for evening when I have stayed at home. What happens when I have been kept up at night by a sick child: should I inform you by call or text that I am unfit for work the next day? "

(I mean, i wouldn't, because this is laying it on too thick).

This!
Absolutely not their business what time your flight gets in and making assumptions on your behalf.
Sounds a complete jobsworth and you definitely need to raise this with your union

I would be inclined to respond "very funny, for a moment I thought you were being serious"

WOW - does LM also check you have your 5 a day and do 10,000 steps?

That’s bonkers (I’m a senior HR bod). I might raise an eyebrow if someone in my team was coming in on a long haul flight in the middle of the night) but I wouldn’t turn down their leave.

If you got in touch with my team about this, I’d tell your manager they are being utterly ridiculous and to approve your leave immediately. I’d also point out that this Sunday is a non-working day (I’m assuming), and what you do then is none of their business!

I recall a seriously delayed flight back from the States, I phoned a friend to collect me from the airport train and take me into work! Luckily it was a training day, not teaching.