Saying no to my children having experiences without us?

[MancLass76]

I have 2 children aged 11 and 7 and my sister in law keeps asking if they can do things with them. On one hand it’s great she wants to spend time with them (my brother will be involved as well, she’s just the organiser), they have a great relationship and I really want to encourage that but on the other hand, she puts me in a difficult position of sometimes wanting/deciding to say no and then getting grief if I do and being made to feel really selfish (which I get I am being to some degree).

They are childless through choice but also have higher incomes so often their suggestions are out of reach for us (or something we need to plan for) and they are suggesting experiences for my kids that I don’t want to not be there for. Top end think safari lodges in the UK at £1000 for one night, first trip to London and a show in the West End kind of things but then smaller trips such as first visit to a particular zoo (which has been a family fave through 2 generations of our family).

Am I being unreasonable though to deny my kids these experiences if it means it won’t ever happen.

I also get grief if I ask to be included/tag along on the cheaper things so I can see my kids enjoying the experience they have planned. They bought a virgin experience involving cars for my daughter at Christmas and I asked to go watch and they are now being awkward with the date to make it work.

I think YABVU. Why would you want to deny your children these wonderful experiences. Let this be a thing they do with their aunty and uncle. Stop trying to tag along and let them enjoy a bit of independence and allow them to revel in the excitement. I would love it if my daughter got these opportunities. I might feel a pang of 'I wish I was there too', but the idea of preventing them from participating!! Give your head a wobble and stop being so petty and selfish. I am annoyed on their behalf.

On the topic of the actual trips, I'd just aim for a healthy mix of "whole family" events (including you) and events just for them. The local zoo is nice to visit with auntie and uncle. But I wouldn't let my 7 and 11 old go off on safari without me! I'd draw the line at that. It's a family holiday or not at all.

Just make sure you spend an appropriate amount of time gushing over Aunt and Uncle's generosity, and getting the kids to thank them, if you do get invited along. Flatter their egos a bit. It's what they want, and it might make things less awkward if you appear genuinely thrilled by it all. Brother and sister-in-law might prefer to splash the cash in front of the kids, because kids don't feel jealous or resentful about money the way adults can. It probably spoils the fun a bit to know mum and dad are watching from the sidelines thinking "we could never give you all this". If you can assure them it doesn't upset you, they might be happier to invite you along.

I can see why you'd feel the way you do, particularly if most of the 'special' days out and holidays are being shared with your SIL and not you. We all want to watch our children experiencing magical things, after all. I also think it's a bit weird if she doesn't want you to join them on days out to the zoo, London, etc. Why not?
Maybe you can be more selective about the trips with their aunt and uncle. Let them do one or two and say no to the rest. You can take them to London, there's so much free stuff you can do there anyway. And save up to take them to their first show. If the SIL wants to spend £1000 a night on a safari lodge, let her pay for the kids to do that!

Just can’t imagine why a mother would want to stop her children having interesting and exciting experiences with loving family members. Please answer why you haven’t taken them to a zoo yet ? but you don’t want anyone else to take them. You need to put these kids first and not make it all about you.

Yes YABU. My sister in law has done loads with our kids. I’d never deny them the chance to spend time with her and do things that they might not do otherwise.

This. The assumption that a childfree woman must secretly be longing for a child is patronising nonsense. As is the assumption that a "male point of view" is wanted or needed. Just because a woman loves her neice and nephew and enjoys spending time with them, that doesn't mean she is harbouring "maternal fantasies" ffs.

She has established that she simply wishes to be there to be able to witness their joy, and as their parents, why shouldn't she feel this way?

Because it's weird, overly enmeshed and proprietary to feel you're entitled as a parent to witness every single mildly special 'thing' 'experience' or 'first' your child has? There are going to be lots of 'firsts' that OP won't experience with their DC - their first kiss, first sleepover, first 'night out', first day at school (after dropping them off), first day at uni, etc. - and that's completely normal.

Most people have suggested that if there are a few specific things that OP and her DH want to do with their kids as their parents - the zoo, or first west end show, then that's fine. It's OP's apparent reluctance for the DC to do anything vaguely fun or exciting without her that's weird and selfish.

'Witnessing their joy' is all about her and how she feels, not the DC. She hasn't suggested their joy would be heightened by their entire family watching them go on a race car experience, because, being honestly it probably wouldn't.

At best they won't care who is there, but more likely at 11 they'll probably prefer to do a few fun things without mum and dad, because it's different, a bit exciting and grown-up. Doesn't mean they don't love them or mum and dad aren't still the most important adults in their lives, it's a natural (and healthy) part of growing up to form independent relationships with other people.

I also can't believe you literally said a happily childfree woman 'needs' kids of her own. Reddit incel forums are that way...

point of view from someone with a womb and ‘maternal’ tendencies. You’re wrong.

They’re not going to Africa! It’s a safari park in the UK…

Yes

But all this is on a whole different level.

How?

I don't see what's so excessive about what they want to do with the kids. The most they've suggested doing is spending ONE night away with them. Hardly taking them to disneyland or extended holidays abroad. Apart from the safari lodge (Longleat?) none of the activities even sound excessively expensive - fairly standard birthday/Christmas treats. OP hasn't suggested they're offering to take them out every weekend - it's nearly August and probably because OP is being obstructive they still haven't even done the DD's Christmas outing yet!

People using the 'disney adult' comparison are completely missing the point of what a 'disney dad' is - a PARENT who choses to do fun things over the boring, responsible things - which is inappropriate because that's not the job of a PARENT. You have to do the boring stuff with YOUR kids, that's part of the deal. But the whole point of being the fun aunt/uncle or indulgent grandparent is that you're not the parent - you're not expected to do the responsible, thankless, everyday stuff, and tbh I imagine most people on here criticising the aunt/uncle (but unsurprisingly mainly the aunt...) would be equally annoyed if they did start doing 'parent' things like disciplining the kids or giving their opinion on what school they should go to or whatever - because that would also be wrong and 'overstepping' in their eyes.

Kids aren't toys to be hoarded, ffs. If you're so insecure about them having fun with an adult who isn't you, perhaps you should be spending time working on your own relationship with your DC rather than worrying about their aunt not coming to football practice or primary school play (I'm completely with them, can't imagine anything worse. Your own kids plays are bad enough. Tbh I've never heard of aunts/uncles going to that sort of thing - maybe grandparents at a push...)

Exactly this! A Disney Dad is a Dad who shirks the responsibility, leaving the Mum to do all the discipline, sick days, homework, school runs, sitting through boring af school plays and freezing to death on football pitches. They send the kids home sugar-crazed and exhausted and the problem with that is that it's every other weekend, not just once in a while.

Anyone suggesting that because Aunt and Uncle have been kind enough to offer some fun trips, they are therefore somehow obligated to come to the boring stuff or take over parenting for OP need to really think about their entitlement!

Kids don't necessarily value things in the same way as adults do. My ex goes way overboard with presents, holidays etc. But last year when I asked my 8 and 11 year olds what their favourite thing during the summer holidays was it was dam building on a beach. Didn't cost anything.

I don’t think being an aunt or uncle is the same as being a parent. One of the joys of being an aunt or uncle is that you’re not responsible for parenting you get to enjoy the fun parts without the daily responsibilities. In that way, it’s probably quite similar to being a grandparent.

There are a lot of things that parents do simply because it's part of the role things like watching football games or attending events. Most parents are naturally invested in their children and want to support them, even if the activity itself isn’t particularly interesting.

I’m happy to show up when I’m invited to something, but I’m not going to pretend I find every activity genuinely interesting. Some things are just boring to me. And that’s okay. I don’t mind doing those things for my own children because they’re mine, and that bond makes the difference. But as an aunt or uncle, there’s a freedom to be more indulgent, to dip in and out, and to focus on the enjoyable parts of the relationship without having to do all the hard bits that come with being a parent.

Really? What about it is on a different level? It’s a couple of outings ffs. One is overnight. Big deal.

Honestly, the way some people are talking you’d think they were banging the door down every weekend demanding to take the kids on round-the-world cruises.

"Because it's weird, overly enmeshed and proprietary to feel you're entitled as a parent to witness every single mildly special 'thing' 'experience' or 'first' your child has? There are going to be lots of 'firsts' that OP won't experience with their DC - their first kiss, first sleepover, first 'night out', first day at school (after dropping them off), first day at uni, etc. - and that's completely normal."

FFS. 🤦‍♀️
That's not what OP is saying.

OP…totally get you. It’s the performative element, always under their terms, what they want to do, won’t engage in what they deem ‘mundane’ events. Assuming so that they can no doubt put lots of “family” pics on Instagram and show the world what great uncle and aunt they are. Do you feel like their are using your kids as much as treating them?

I think your feelings are completely justified. It's like you are being constantly outdone. If it was the occasional special outing (e.g. in the summer holidays or at Christmas) it would be fine, but if it's constant and they overshadow you with Christmas and birthday presents as well it's not on really. Have you ever tried to tell them how it make you feel? Would you be able to?

I replied before on this thread and said it was ok to let extended family share experiences with your child you cannot provide. I said the trip to the zoo though, which is within means, is not ok.

Having thought about this and thinking back to my first experience with in-laws and children, I do not think I thought about the intention behind it. If it is occasionally then I think it is ok still, but it can also be about entitlement and enmeshment. If their presence is there to such an extent that it sidelines, diminishes or excludes a parent then it is not welcome. My in-laws intention was to minimize me and weaken the bond between me and my children. I regret allowing such contact and it is impossible to undo - I divorced and now have an alienating ex husband who has set out to remove me from the kids life and replace me with his own mother. This is extreme but it is important to protect your relationship with your children first.

YANBU. I get instinctively alarmed when people try to take DC away from their parents too much. The odd treat or trip out? Very generous and kind, but constantly bombarding them with expensive stuff their own DPs can’t afford or taking them away from you - no.

If they wanted to do this stuff regularly they should have had their own family.

Not just unreasonable, @MancLass76 , but also very selfish. Surely, being a parent means you want your children to have a well rounded, happy and mind expanding life? They don't exist just for your entertainment. I can understand wanting to be on hand to experience the real "firsts" - walking, talking etc but your kids are way past that stage.
You actually sound jealous of their financial situation being better than yours rather than really wanting the best for your children. My kids had a fairy godmother in my childless, happy and exciting sister in law. She had no interest in playing mother to them but was able to give them experiences we couldn't. They don't love us any the less for it.

What is she saying
or you misinterpreting
then?

Because from reading OPs actual words, where she specifically refers to several "firsts" she doesn't want the kids to experience unless she's there, that's exactly what she's saying

Wow! So it’s really all about you. Mumsnet is a real eye opener- I cannot believe you are so selfish and actually trying to defend yourself too!

I'm wondering if SIL is someone who is desperately competitive with everyone - I have one married to someone who always an expert - 20 years of dealing with people who try and insit they know your kids better than you and who constantly try and out do you.

I try and direct it to benefit the kids - and see wider picture - but when I'm feeling insecure or worried or it's a time of big change it's a real bane - DH finds it so as well.

If kids are happy in their company - I'd say yes to things you won't be able to and thank you to them and try and ignore the competition aspect - and strive to find a blance no to thing you are planning and yes to things you can't do as long as kids are happy to go along.