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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
Dangermoo · 20/07/2025 22:31

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:31

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:29

Because she’s mixed race. She’s caught between multiple races. She has black heritage but may not see herself as fully black or fully any other ethnicity.

I mean that's your take on it, of course.

Pinkrosesyellowroses · 20/07/2025 22:32

AuntyHistamine · 20/07/2025 20:08

That’s the problem though. Having the piss taken out of you for being a ginge is not akin to racism.

She did not say that prejudice against ginger people was akin to racism. She just said people with ginger hair experience prejudice - which they do. She did not say it was equally bad to the prejudice other groups face. The point was that different groups experience prejudice in different ways.

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:33

Dangermoo · 20/07/2025 21:22

No I'm not referring to that.

So you’re speaking in an undertone. Ironic.

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:33

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:31

I mean that's your take on it, of course.

It’s an obvious deduction for anyone not picking up a pitchfork.

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:34

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I don’t think you know what gaslighting means.

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:37

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:33

It’s an obvious deduction for anyone not picking up a pitchfork.

Depends on your point of view. All I know is that a lot of people claim to be what they're not online in order to indulge in a bit of moral grandstanding without challenge. And that particular poster made some awfully anti semitic comments while claiming to be Jewish. Maybe I'm just cynical but it's not really adding up for me.

Dangermoo · 20/07/2025 22:37

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:33

So you’re speaking in an undertone. Ironic.

I'm not saying anything that will get me banned. There's plenty I'd like to say, in response to antisemitic people, who go round the houses with their prejudice. As I said before, they ease themselves into threads by making out they are not biased then they up the ante.

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:40

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:22

What, that the son of an architect and an MP with power, privilege, well-connected friends, a healthy salary and - in Hackney - a job for life if she wants it is is serious danger of being recruited by county lines? I mean really, pull the other one! Nobody I knew bought it at the time and it's hard to believe anyone is buying it now. She wanted her son to go to private school and she didn't much care about what happened to all the black kids whose families weren't in a position to do likewise.

Like you say you don't know Hackney and I'm from there so to a degree you're going to have to take on board what I'm saying here.

Edited

She wanted her son to go to private school and she didn't much care about what happened to all the black kids whose families weren't in a position to do likewise.

She is not responsible for sending all the black kids to private school. She has a primary responsibility to her son.

Politicians are politicians, they go back on what they all the time. I find the laser focus on this issue on DA problematic.

Dangermoo · 20/07/2025 22:43

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:34

I don’t think you know what gaslighting means.

I certainly do. Why are you so hell bent on protecting this poster? Also, Abbott was happy to slate anybody who sent their kids to private schools. Why should she be afforded the privilege of putting her son first and none of those other parents?

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:44

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:40

She wanted her son to go to private school and she didn't much care about what happened to all the black kids whose families weren't in a position to do likewise.

She is not responsible for sending all the black kids to private school. She has a primary responsibility to her son.

Politicians are politicians, they go back on what they all the time. I find the laser focus on this issue on DA problematic.

She has a primary responsibility to her constituents and not to spread harmful racist stereotypes in order to justify her hypocrisy.

In any case she was talking bollocks telling me my daughter would be fine because she was a girl and girls' education in Hackney was good while boys' education was unacceptably substandard for her son. 🙄

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:45

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:40

She wanted her son to go to private school and she didn't much care about what happened to all the black kids whose families weren't in a position to do likewise.

She is not responsible for sending all the black kids to private school. She has a primary responsibility to her son.

Politicians are politicians, they go back on what they all the time. I find the laser focus on this issue on DA problematic.

Plus obviously I'm focusing on someone who was my MP for over fifteen years and who I voted for more than once! Weird you'd expect otherwise.

LBFseBrom · 20/07/2025 22:47

She wanted her son to go to private school and she didn't much care about what happened to all the black kids whose families weren't in a position to do likewise.

Nonsense, she cared very much - and her son went to the City of London School which, at that time, gave assisted places and grammar school places. It's a good school, I've known kids go there and it isn't elitist. It's not as if she sent him to Eton and he wouldn't have been admitted had he not passed the entry. He had the same sort of education that she had - she went to a grammar school. We do the best for our children, good for her. If all the comprehensives were great places it would be marvellous but they are not.

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:48

Dangermoo · 20/07/2025 22:37

I'm not saying anything that will get me banned. There's plenty I'd like to say, in response to antisemitic people, who go round the houses with their prejudice. As I said before, they ease themselves into threads by making out they are not biased then they up the ante.

Doesn’t that apply to all racists though? People have eased into their racism on this thread.

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:55

LBFseBrom · 20/07/2025 22:47

She wanted her son to go to private school and she didn't much care about what happened to all the black kids whose families weren't in a position to do likewise.

Nonsense, she cared very much - and her son went to the City of London School which, at that time, gave assisted places and grammar school places. It's a good school, I've known kids go there and it isn't elitist. It's not as if she sent him to Eton and he wouldn't have been admitted had he not passed the entry. He had the same sort of education that she had - she went to a grammar school. We do the best for our children, good for her. If all the comprehensives were great places it would be marvellous but they are not.

I mean I actually spoke to her about it face to face and my impression definitely wasn't that she cared very much about other Hackney kids education. All I can go on is my personal experience and my knowledge of her criticism of private education until she wanted to use it for her son. Let's not forget that she paid 10k a year in 2003 for his place, so very much not like the grammar school education she received in the 60s. And there were decent school places for boys in Hackney at that time - I know, I lived there! Ed Balls and Yvette Cooper used the local schools and I doubt they'd have thought twice about going private if they weren't any good.

Oshio · 20/07/2025 22:57

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:25

Why didn’t @neveragainforreal , who posted ‘As a Jewish person of colour, my experience is that I have encountered more racism for being Jewish than being a person of colour’ face this aggressive questioning?

Why is @Lavenderflower being singled out?

These are the different posts from @Lavenderflower

"I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry"

"I do not look fully European or traditionally English".

"as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles"

"As someone who is both Black and Jewish"

"I may not be Black or Brown, but as someone who is visibly mixed race, I face racism based solely on how I look"

So frankly I'm left confused. She's gone from mixed race to 'not fully European looking' to fully Black, whilst simultaneously going from having some Jewish heritage to saying she'd never align herself eith the Jewish community to being fully Jewish all in the space of 48 hours.

Maybe you can help clarify

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 23:00

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/nov/01/uk.schools?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

She acknowledged her hypocrisy at the time even though she still used harmful stereotypes to try and justify it. And talking about how black mums would go to the wall for their kids - what a slap in the face that was for other black parents who couldn't afford private school and whose kids Abbott didn't advocate for in Parliament so they could receive an improved education.

Abbott defends indefensible in sending son to private school

The leftwing Labour MP Diane Abbott has admitted that her decision to send her 12-year-old son to a private school is "indefensible".

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/nov/01/uk.schools?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Longingdreamer · 20/07/2025 23:10

Oshio · 20/07/2025 22:57

These are the different posts from @Lavenderflower

"I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry"

"I do not look fully European or traditionally English".

"as a mixed-race person, I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles"

"As someone who is both Black and Jewish"

"I may not be Black or Brown, but as someone who is visibly mixed race, I face racism based solely on how I look"

So frankly I'm left confused. She's gone from mixed race to 'not fully European looking' to fully Black, whilst simultaneously going from having some Jewish heritage to saying she'd never align herself eith the Jewish community to being fully Jewish all in the space of 48 hours.

Maybe you can help clarify

I genuinely think they are a bot, and Anti-Semitic one at that.

A genuine person would at least remember their lies for a few minutes.

nomas · 20/07/2025 23:11

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 22:37

Depends on your point of view. All I know is that a lot of people claim to be what they're not online in order to indulge in a bit of moral grandstanding without challenge. And that particular poster made some awfully anti semitic comments while claiming to be Jewish. Maybe I'm just cynical but it's not really adding up for me.

When she says everyone needs to fight their own battles I.e. races shouldn’t ally with each other, I disagree with her. I think people can find they have more in common than they think if they want to.

But there are black people who have spoken up about ‘performative allyship’ and that’s the meaning that I took from her posts, that only the community going through the racism can understand what they’re facing and fight
it.

ForWittyTealOP · 20/07/2025 23:21

nomas · 20/07/2025 23:11

When she says everyone needs to fight their own battles I.e. races shouldn’t ally with each other, I disagree with her. I think people can find they have more in common than they think if they want to.

But there are black people who have spoken up about ‘performative allyship’ and that’s the meaning that I took from her posts, that only the community going through the racism can understand what they’re facing and fight
it.

I get the point about performative allyship and definitely agree with it - we've seen a lot of it over the past half decade and it's something fashionable that can be picked up and dropped. That helps nobody. But I disagree that's what the pp was talking about. Her tone suggested a lack of solidarity and without that, we're just going to fight our individual battles in perpetuity, never making headway.

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:12

SharonEllis · 20/07/2025 21:24

All this talk of allyship is disingenuous. @Lavenderflower said herself 'I would never align myself with or attempt to form an alliance with the Jewish community. I think everyone needs to advocate and fight their own battles.'

I'm pleased that you've highlighted the performative nature of much of the current discourse on allyship. The reality is that true allyship is often absent. This becomes clear when you examine many of the responses in this thread, including those from yourself, which indicate that some individuals seem more focused on defending or centring their own ethnic group's experiences rather than participating in authentic, collective solidarity. Hence, my previous, some people should just focus on their own issues rather than pretending to form allyship or care about people.

This thread underscores a broader and concerning trend, exemplified by the actions of political figures like Keir Starmer, who appear to be attempting to control and dictate who is allowed to speak on issues of racism and how these conversations should be framed.

This approach communicates a concerning message, that certain voices are deemed more legitimate than others and that only specific forms of racism are appropriate for public acknowledgment. Such selective engagement fundamentally undermines the core principles of intersectional allyship and racial justice.

A notable example is Oshio’s assertion that Black and Brown communities do not experience racism due to their numerical presence in certain areas. This perspective is fundamentally flawed and overly simplistic. Demographic representation does not equate to racial equity, nor does it address the structural barriers these communities continue to encounter. Why would I want to align myself with these views?

Furthermore, Oshio asserted that Jewish individuals face higher levels of racism, referencing reported hate crime statistics. While these statistics are both significant and valid, it is crucial to consider them within the broader systemic and institutional contexts. Black women in the UK continue to experience disproportionately poor maternal health outcomes, and that Brown women often endure longer waiting times for medical treatment both of which are well-documented and deeply troubling manifestations of institutional inequality.
To portray one group’s oppression as more legitimate without acknowledging the wider spectrum of racialised experiences is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous.

Furthermore, Oshio has now questioned and has expressed alleged confusion regarding my identity and how I identify. This behaviour reflects a common micro-aggression faced by mixed-race individuals; mono-racial people label mixed race individuals as “confused” about our identities. Such remarks are not only dismissive but also stem from a failure to recognise the complexity and legitimacy of multiracial identities.

I have not made any statements that could be considered antisemitic or racist toward Jewish individuals. Nonetheless, I find myself being labeled as racist, having my racial identity called into question, and facing criticism for my communication style simply because I hold a different perspective. This manner of response does not exemplify solidarity or allyship; rather, it indicates a concerning reluctance to engage with differing viewpoints in a constructive manner.

As I have previously stated, I will not tolerate bullying or any attempts to intimidate me into silence. Additionally, I refuse to allow individuals who seem to misunderstand or misapply the definition of racism to dictate my discourse on the subject.

I was brought up with the belief that debate and intellectual discourse are not only encouraged within the Jewish tradition but also form a central part of Jewish history and theology. However, based on some responses in this discussion, it appears I may have been mistaken. Rather than engaging in principled dialogue, some have opted to dismiss differing viewpoints through personal attacks and mischaracterisations.

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 00:27

You just can't help yourself! Take your anti Jewish hatred elsewhere and stop pretending to be Jewish - really really unpleasant behaviour.

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:28

nomas · 20/07/2025 22:25

Why didn’t @neveragainforreal , who posted ‘As a Jewish person of colour, my experience is that I have encountered more racism for being Jewish than being a person of colour’ face this aggressive questioning?

Why is @Lavenderflower being singled out?

@nomas As is now evident, I am now being targeted and criticised specifically for being mixed race. Certain individuals are feigning confusion about how I describe my ethnicity, which is a common tactic used to delegitimise the identities of mixed-race people. This type of response is not a genuine inquiry, but rather a subtle form of racialised dismissal that seeks to undermine my credibility.

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:35

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 00:27

You just can't help yourself! Take your anti Jewish hatred elsewhere and stop pretending to be Jewish - really really unpleasant behaviour.

Where have I pretended to be Jewish. I have clearly stated that I mixed race person with both black and Jewish ancestry amongst other ethnicities. There is a difference between having Jewish ancestry and being Jewish - they are not the same thing. As you are probably aware, Jewish people do not accept any one as Jewish unless their mother is Jewish. And in my experience, Jewish are not particularly accepting of mixed race Jewish people.

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:38

nomas · 20/07/2025 23:11

When she says everyone needs to fight their own battles I.e. races shouldn’t ally with each other, I disagree with her. I think people can find they have more in common than they think if they want to.

But there are black people who have spoken up about ‘performative allyship’ and that’s the meaning that I took from her posts, that only the community going through the racism can understand what they’re facing and fight
it.

You hit the nail with second paragraph. As stated before, certain posters are very selective in what they want to see.