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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

808 replies

Elephantiner · 17/07/2025 14:18

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
16
ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 00:55

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:35

Where have I pretended to be Jewish. I have clearly stated that I mixed race person with both black and Jewish ancestry amongst other ethnicities. There is a difference between having Jewish ancestry and being Jewish - they are not the same thing. As you are probably aware, Jewish people do not accept any one as Jewish unless their mother is Jewish. And in my experience, Jewish are not particularly accepting of mixed race Jewish people.

Lecturing the Jew on what it means to be Jewish and at the same time perpetuating anti Jewish stereotypes - great look. Really well done.

And for the love of God put ChatGPT down! We're in danger of forgetting how to use our brains, not just those who use AI in lieu of thinking, but also those of us who have to read the stilted drivel that replaces human thought and expression.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 00:58

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:35

Where have I pretended to be Jewish. I have clearly stated that I mixed race person with both black and Jewish ancestry amongst other ethnicities. There is a difference between having Jewish ancestry and being Jewish - they are not the same thing. As you are probably aware, Jewish people do not accept any one as Jewish unless their mother is Jewish. And in my experience, Jewish are not particularly accepting of mixed race Jewish people.

Nice gaslighting.

You are being targeted for lying, not being mixed race.

At one point you say you have Jewish ancestry but aren't Jewish, then later you say you're both Black and Jewish.

You describe yourself as mixed heritage, then "not fully European," then Black, then "not Black or Brown"—all within the same thread.

You also said you’d never align with the Jewish community, but then invoke being part of it to speak on Jewish issues. Quite often saying antisemitic things.

I'm not going to read your copy and paste essays anymore.

You have undermined your own credibility..

Frummie · 21/07/2025 01:48

Oshio · 20/07/2025 21:49

So your reaction to a young person dealing with fear of antisemitism is to tell them you don't think they're a real Jew anyway?

You have serious problems.

Judaism isn't something you cosplay. If someone isn't Jewish, and doesn't actually keep Jewish laws, he shouldn't claim to suffer from antisemitism because he can't pretend keep kosher.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 02:25

Frummie · 21/07/2025 01:48

Judaism isn't something you cosplay. If someone isn't Jewish, and doesn't actually keep Jewish laws, he shouldn't claim to suffer from antisemitism because he can't pretend keep kosher.

My goodness...disgraceful post.

HelenaWaiting · 21/07/2025 02:30

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:28

@nomas As is now evident, I am now being targeted and criticised specifically for being mixed race. Certain individuals are feigning confusion about how I describe my ethnicity, which is a common tactic used to delegitimise the identities of mixed-race people. This type of response is not a genuine inquiry, but rather a subtle form of racialised dismissal that seeks to undermine my credibility.

I'm mixed race. I've criticised you. I guess the main difference between us is that my racial heritage doesn't change every five minutes.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 02:32

HelenaWaiting · 21/07/2025 02:30

I'm mixed race. I've criticised you. I guess the main difference between us is that my racial heritage doesn't change every five minutes.

👏 👏

Oshio · 21/07/2025 02:47

Frummie · 21/07/2025 01:48

Judaism isn't something you cosplay. If someone isn't Jewish, and doesn't actually keep Jewish laws, he shouldn't claim to suffer from antisemitism because he can't pretend keep kosher.

As already explained, I’m not Jewish and I used the wrong word - that’s really not hard to grasp, especially since the meaning was clear from the context I gave.

And no, not all Jewish people keep kosher. That doesn’t make them any less Jewish, and it certainly doesn’t mean they don’t face antisemitism.

When a group of kids spit on you in the street saying "Jew", or someone calls you a "Jew c*nt" on a bus, and when you have to hide your religion to avoid being attacked, you are experiencing antisemitism.

I imagine when you’re not hiding behind an anonymous username, you aren't quite as obvious about it are you?

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 02:54

Oshio · 21/07/2025 02:47

As already explained, I’m not Jewish and I used the wrong word - that’s really not hard to grasp, especially since the meaning was clear from the context I gave.

And no, not all Jewish people keep kosher. That doesn’t make them any less Jewish, and it certainly doesn’t mean they don’t face antisemitism.

When a group of kids spit on you in the street saying "Jew", or someone calls you a "Jew c*nt" on a bus, and when you have to hide your religion to avoid being attacked, you are experiencing antisemitism.

I imagine when you’re not hiding behind an anonymous username, you aren't quite as obvious about it are you?

Some of these posts have been covertly antisemitic. However, I think the posters need to practice hiding their prejudice; they really aren't very good at it. You can almost smell the sneering.

Frummie · 21/07/2025 04:18

Oshio · 21/07/2025 02:47

As already explained, I’m not Jewish and I used the wrong word - that’s really not hard to grasp, especially since the meaning was clear from the context I gave.

And no, not all Jewish people keep kosher. That doesn’t make them any less Jewish, and it certainly doesn’t mean they don’t face antisemitism.

When a group of kids spit on you in the street saying "Jew", or someone calls you a "Jew c*nt" on a bus, and when you have to hide your religion to avoid being attacked, you are experiencing antisemitism.

I imagine when you’re not hiding behind an anonymous username, you aren't quite as obvious about it are you?

I am a Jew who keeps kosher and has suffered antisemitism. I find it offensive when non-Jewish cosplay my religion by putting on a kippah, then jumping on the bandwagon of antisemitism.

If you're not a halachic Jew, kindly remove your kippah and stop appropriating other people's suffering.

AuntyHistamine · 21/07/2025 05:49

nomas · 20/07/2025 21:28

So why the attack on James Abbott Thompson?

There is no suggestion he is doing crystal meth. LinkedIn says he’s a consultant at Heward Mills and a Strategy Consultant at Protect Black Women.

Do you think that justifies spitting on police officers?

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 06:16

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:12

I'm pleased that you've highlighted the performative nature of much of the current discourse on allyship. The reality is that true allyship is often absent. This becomes clear when you examine many of the responses in this thread, including those from yourself, which indicate that some individuals seem more focused on defending or centring their own ethnic group's experiences rather than participating in authentic, collective solidarity. Hence, my previous, some people should just focus on their own issues rather than pretending to form allyship or care about people.

This thread underscores a broader and concerning trend, exemplified by the actions of political figures like Keir Starmer, who appear to be attempting to control and dictate who is allowed to speak on issues of racism and how these conversations should be framed.

This approach communicates a concerning message, that certain voices are deemed more legitimate than others and that only specific forms of racism are appropriate for public acknowledgment. Such selective engagement fundamentally undermines the core principles of intersectional allyship and racial justice.

A notable example is Oshio’s assertion that Black and Brown communities do not experience racism due to their numerical presence in certain areas. This perspective is fundamentally flawed and overly simplistic. Demographic representation does not equate to racial equity, nor does it address the structural barriers these communities continue to encounter. Why would I want to align myself with these views?

Furthermore, Oshio asserted that Jewish individuals face higher levels of racism, referencing reported hate crime statistics. While these statistics are both significant and valid, it is crucial to consider them within the broader systemic and institutional contexts. Black women in the UK continue to experience disproportionately poor maternal health outcomes, and that Brown women often endure longer waiting times for medical treatment both of which are well-documented and deeply troubling manifestations of institutional inequality.
To portray one group’s oppression as more legitimate without acknowledging the wider spectrum of racialised experiences is intellectually dishonest and disingenuous.

Furthermore, Oshio has now questioned and has expressed alleged confusion regarding my identity and how I identify. This behaviour reflects a common micro-aggression faced by mixed-race individuals; mono-racial people label mixed race individuals as “confused” about our identities. Such remarks are not only dismissive but also stem from a failure to recognise the complexity and legitimacy of multiracial identities.

I have not made any statements that could be considered antisemitic or racist toward Jewish individuals. Nonetheless, I find myself being labeled as racist, having my racial identity called into question, and facing criticism for my communication style simply because I hold a different perspective. This manner of response does not exemplify solidarity or allyship; rather, it indicates a concerning reluctance to engage with differing viewpoints in a constructive manner.

As I have previously stated, I will not tolerate bullying or any attempts to intimidate me into silence. Additionally, I refuse to allow individuals who seem to misunderstand or misapply the definition of racism to dictate my discourse on the subject.

I was brought up with the belief that debate and intellectual discourse are not only encouraged within the Jewish tradition but also form a central part of Jewish history and theology. However, based on some responses in this discussion, it appears I may have been mistaken. Rather than engaging in principled dialogue, some have opted to dismiss differing viewpoints through personal attacks and mischaracterisations.

On pretty much every occasion you have twisted what people say to fit your very theoretical construction of what racism is and how it is experienced. All with one purpose which is to uphold your hierarchy of race and racism and undermine the experiences of others. All of which takes us further and further away from what Abbott said which was historically inaccurate and disgracefully dismissive of the experiences of Jews and Travellers today. She admitted herself at the beginning that the letter was the wrong draft. That should have been the end of it. You have to wonder what purpose it serves to drag it all up again just at the point of a huge surge in antisemitism. Its very depressing to see. I'm glad Owolade showed allyship and called it out again.

AuntyHistamine · 21/07/2025 06:22

nomas · 20/07/2025 21:28

So why the attack on James Abbott Thompson?

There is no suggestion he is doing crystal meth. LinkedIn says he’s a consultant at Heward Mills and a Strategy Consultant at Protect Black Women.

Yeah your right. No suggestion of crystal meth among the other 11 charges for violent assaults, attacks on emergency workers and indecent exposure. That's ok then. Oh and naturally mummy tried to block any reporting on this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7842415/Diane-Abbotts-privately-educated-son-28-charged-11-new-offences.html

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 06:23

Oh and @Lavenderflower trying to understand your apparently contradictory statements about your identity is not a 'rather a subtle form of racialised dismissal that seeks to undermine my [your] credibility'. You brought them up to give your statements weight and authenticity in a conversation where other people's lived experience was being questioned. Given this whole discussion started with Abbott using visible racial difference as the key criteria for experiencing racism that she considers valid then obviously this will be important. Don't bring it up if its not relevant. Don't expect to be able to say contradictory things without explaining them.

Oshio · 21/07/2025 06:30

Frummie · 21/07/2025 04:18

I am a Jew who keeps kosher and has suffered antisemitism. I find it offensive when non-Jewish cosplay my religion by putting on a kippah, then jumping on the bandwagon of antisemitism.

If you're not a halachic Jew, kindly remove your kippah and stop appropriating other people's suffering.

If you really are a Jew, then you’d have understood exactly what I meant the first time 'wouldn’t you.

I’m no expert, but I’ve met all the boys from my son’s JSoc. Not one of them keeps kosher. My son is the only one who wears a kippah funnily enough. And every single one is proudly Jewish.

I think he’ll stick with guidance from his rabbi and his actual community, rather than take cues from whoever you are.

ForWittyTealOP · 21/07/2025 07:30

Frummie · 21/07/2025 04:18

I am a Jew who keeps kosher and has suffered antisemitism. I find it offensive when non-Jewish cosplay my religion by putting on a kippah, then jumping on the bandwagon of antisemitism.

If you're not a halachic Jew, kindly remove your kippah and stop appropriating other people's suffering.

That kind of narrow and exclusive view of Judaism is incredibly out of date. There are many atheist and secular Jews who would not recognise your version of what you must do and be to be considered "truly" Jewish.

kalokagathos · 21/07/2025 07:34

💯 And I’m white saying this. I’m Polish and experienced racism but it wasn’t as speedy.. my husband is black and I witnessed how fast it gets served. He can be immediately picked out.

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 07:40

kalokagathos · 21/07/2025 07:34

💯 And I’m white saying this. I’m Polish and experienced racism but it wasn’t as speedy.. my husband is black and I witnessed how fast it gets served. He can be immediately picked out.

Nobody is doubting that visible skin colour is not immediately obvious. 'fast' racism as you put it immediately might follow which won't be the case for a person who appears to be white. A lot of people are arguing in bad faith about this because racism manifests itself in diffetent ways in different contexts. Please go back to what Abbott said. She proceeded to say that Jews and Travellers are not subject to racism all their lives. This is obviously untrue.

Dangermoo · 21/07/2025 07:52

AuntyHistamine · 21/07/2025 06:22

Yeah your right. No suggestion of crystal meth among the other 11 charges for violent assaults, attacks on emergency workers and indecent exposure. That's ok then. Oh and naturally mummy tried to block any reporting on this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7842415/Diane-Abbotts-privately-educated-son-28-charged-11-new-offences.html

Anybody else's criminal record would be a problem with future employment. I guess privilege is alive and kicking, depending on who your parents are. This, alone, adds to Abbott's record of double standards.

nomas · 21/07/2025 07:52

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:28

@nomas As is now evident, I am now being targeted and criticised specifically for being mixed race. Certain individuals are feigning confusion about how I describe my ethnicity, which is a common tactic used to delegitimise the identities of mixed-race people. This type of response is not a genuine inquiry, but rather a subtle form of racialised dismissal that seeks to undermine my credibility.

I definitely see it, Lavender.

I’m not mixed race but I can see that mixed race people may have more to say about identity than those who are not.

To see someone called a liar just because they have described their mixed race identity in different ways is just more racism.

nomas · 21/07/2025 07:56

AuntyHistamine · 21/07/2025 06:22

Yeah your right. No suggestion of crystal meth among the other 11 charges for violent assaults, attacks on emergency workers and indecent exposure. That's ok then. Oh and naturally mummy tried to block any reporting on this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7842415/Diane-Abbotts-privately-educated-son-28-charged-11-new-offences.html

Is it just black individuals’ history you’re dredging up on this thread or will you be doing it to anyone else?

You said he is doing crystal meth and spitting on police in the present tense, and dredging up articles from 5 years ago.

You are wrong though, he isn’t doing those things now. He is now a consultant for a global firm and also a consultant for a charity that helps black women.

What does his past have to do with this thread?

Does it anger you that he has turned his life around?

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 08:00

nomas · 21/07/2025 07:52

I definitely see it, Lavender.

I’m not mixed race but I can see that mixed race people may have more to say about identity than those who are not.

To see someone called a liar just because they have described their mixed race identity in different ways is just more racism.

They weren't different ways, they were contradictory. Other mixed race people have spoken on this thread and their contributions welcomed and listened to because they have been clear.

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:03

Oshio · 21/07/2025 06:30

If you really are a Jew, then you’d have understood exactly what I meant the first time 'wouldn’t you.

I’m no expert, but I’ve met all the boys from my son’s JSoc. Not one of them keeps kosher. My son is the only one who wears a kippah funnily enough. And every single one is proudly Jewish.

I think he’ll stick with guidance from his rabbi and his actual community, rather than take cues from whoever you are.

Why are you questioning her Jewishness? Hasn’t Frummie shown she is Jewish by her username?

Frum is a Yiddish word meaning religious.

Humdingerydoo · 21/07/2025 08:04

Lavenderflower · 21/07/2025 00:35

Where have I pretended to be Jewish. I have clearly stated that I mixed race person with both black and Jewish ancestry amongst other ethnicities. There is a difference between having Jewish ancestry and being Jewish - they are not the same thing. As you are probably aware, Jewish people do not accept any one as Jewish unless their mother is Jewish. And in my experience, Jewish are not particularly accepting of mixed race Jewish people.

You definitely said you're Jewish in a previous post on this thread. You didn't make it clear at all that by Jewish, you meant you essentially have done a DNA kit and found that you have a percentage Jewish DNA. I actually think we might have interacted before on this forum - are you the poster who was saying you have black heritage but don't believe in reparations because it was so long ago and it's time to "get over it" because it was more than 3 generations ago, and then used that logic to say that Jewish people don't belong in Israel? Sorry if it's not you, it's just that everything you're saying now is very familiar.

And you have now crossed the line from being dangerously close to being anti-Semitic to actually being blatantly anti-Semitic with your nonsense about Jewish people being racist against mixed race Jews. A very large minority of Jewish people in the world are mixed race. We are not all white 🙄 That's just something supposed "anti-racists" say to make them feel better about their racism against Jews. Even me - I look white but I'm actually half Iraqi. This heritage is much more obvious in my siblings but I'm white, ginger and freckly. Still mixed race though.

nomas · 21/07/2025 08:04

SharonEllis · 21/07/2025 08:00

They weren't different ways, they were contradictory. Other mixed race people have spoken on this thread and their contributions welcomed and listened to because they have been clear.

You can’t see why a mixed race people may describe themselves as partly black and then not black?

To be mixed race means you are not fully one thing or the other.