AIBU to agree with Diane Abbott

[Elephantiner]

I cannot stand Diane Abbott, she has a lazy, patronising manner which riles me, but she has said that people visiblybof a different race (e.g. black people) experience a different sort of racism than those who’s race is not visually obvious (travellers, Jewish people etc). She has a point, doesn’t she? Am I missing something here?

Obviously all types of racism are utterly abhorrent.

You definitely said you're Jewish in a previous post on this thread

She didn’t say that, here is what she said:

For instance, I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry; however, I have never experienced direct antisemitism, likely because I do not have identifiable markers typically associated with Jewish identity—such as a recognisably Jewish surname or traditional clothing.

"As someone who is both Black and Jewish (among other ethnic backgrounds), I’ve experienced firsthand how conversations about racism can feel tiered." From 19.44 yesterday. Hence why people are questioning her.

I am a frum Jew and I do understand kashrut laws, which is why I immediately questioned the story of the kosher-keeping Jew who ate Tunisian chicken but then had an issue with the baklava.

Turns out he was born a non-Jew but pretend converted, aka cultural appropriation.

There are secular Jews who were born Jewish and I'm not questioning their Jewishness. But those who weren't born Jewish should kindly not just put on a kippah and claim antisemitism. To me that smacks of Dolezalism.

There isn't a Beth Din that would convert a non-Jew if he wasn't ready to start keeping kosher.

Isn’t that shorthand for what she has already explained? That she is of mixed heritage, including Jewish ancestry, but isn’t Jewish?

Is it reasonable to ask her to keep repeating the explanation below?

For instance, I am of mixed heritage, but most people cannot easily identify the specific ethnic backgrounds I am mixed with. While I am not Jewish, I do have Jewish ancestry; however, I have never experienced direct antisemitism, likely because I do not have identifiable markers typically associated with Jewish identity—such as a recognisably Jewish surname or traditional clothing.

She did go on to say she was Jewish though. People often do when indulging in anti semitism. If they find one Jewish ancestor from 1880 when doing their home ancestry kit, they think it's a get out of jail free card. Jewish people often experience this unfortunately. It's definitely not uncommon.

Just FYI, Frummie absolutely does not speak for all Jewish people with this narrow-minded view of what a Jew is. Not everyone converts orthodox, but they're still converts and therefore still Jewish.

I know what mixed race means!

Like I say, she's out of step. Judaism has adapted to become more welcoming in recent decades. There may be a reason for that.... It's not a good idea to let Judaism die out based on misguided ideas of purity.

Even the secular State of Israel, which has a broader definition of who is a Jew, only accepts Orthodox conversion. Surely it's up to the Jews to determine the criteria.

Jews gaslighting fellow Jews now; as if there's not enough hostility from outside the community. I don't know why we are still on this. @Elephantiner hasn't returned. She knew what she was doing.

Absolutely. I know several converts. None of them orthodox. None of them keep kosher.

I'm not talking about conversion, I'm talking about practice.

That’s not what gaslighting means.

That's twice you've said that to me. Do you not see the irony? I know what I mean.

Gaslighting is a specific form of emotional abuse and mental manipulation that disrupts your ability to trust others and yourself.

You keep misusing it.

3 times now.

So what do you think gaslighting means?

You are rigidly defending something here.

The state of Israel also considers those with only one Jewish grandparent, who may not be practising themselves, to be Jewish. It's not up to you to gatekeep who is Jewish.

Anti-Semites don't check Jews level of religious practise either.

We should be united, and not attempt to divide with arbitrary criteria.

I’m still not seeing why a Jewish person giving her view of what Jewishness is is gaslighting. It’s fin to disagree but calling it gaslighting is weird.

It's being manipulative, as are quite a few posts.

None of them Jewish.

How is she being manipulative? Is she not allowed an opinion?

That sounds suspiciously like the arguments for accepting transwomen as women, and the argument is just as phony.

Shoehorning transphobia into it as well. Nice look.

Luckily most people aren't as exclusive as you, otherwise Judaism would have died out and we know who'd be pleased about that don't we.