Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

All threads with Tandora end the same way. I don't think I've joined one since we last did these tedious arguments during the Olympic boxing debacle but I was bored this evening.

'Why do people keep asking “how”? The “how” and “why” can’t always be answered. Maybe someday we will have those answers.'

and

'How to some people end up knowing/ understanding themselves to be women/ female, despite not having the right chromosomes or genitals, or social rearing? We don’t exactly know:'

Is this an admission at long last that you don't have the evidence that we have asked for? More progress.

Why do female people have to accept policies and laws based on a very remote chance that someday answers to vitally important questions will have evidential support?

😂

No, just a raging optimist 🤣🤣

I'm all for trying to bust stereotypes, that's why I'm a gender critical feminist.

The TQ+ brigade are doing the literal opposite of that.

Fair point 🤣. I live in hope. She may be young.

I’ll leave you once again with this explanation.

Trans people aren’t claiming anything that is false- they are claiming something about their experience which is very much real.

How are some people autistic? How are some people gay? How does the sun rise in the east? How does time always move forward and never backward? I can’t answer these things, I just know them to be true.

How to some people end up knowing/ understanding themselves to be women/ female, despite not having the right chromosomes or genitals, or social rearing? We don’t exactly know: there’s likely a role for a complex variety of genetic and environmental factors - most likely a role for sex hormone signalling aspects of neurodevelopment. Perhaps an element that is social too. We don’t have all those answers.

What we do know for sure is that some people observed to have male chromosomes in utero , or observed to have male genitals at birth, and registered male, go on to develop the cognitive awareness/ understanding/ knowledge of self as female.

This makes no claims to your experience of being female, or my experience of being female or anyone else’s. it doesn’t mean they are claiming their body, or their feelings, or their personality, or their life privilege is anything akin to yours.

If I say I’m hungry, I don’t know if my experience of needing to eat is the same as yours, I just know that i am hungry.

Trans women know they are female. How and why they know this, we don’t know, but the cognition is what it is- Like hunger. And it’s so visceral , so pervasive , so powerful that repressing/ denying/ contradicting it ,is so disorienting and confusing and nonsensical to the person experiencing it , that it results in profound / acute psychological pain and distress.
it is typically something permanent: unchangeable - most likely because it has a durable developmental underpinning- and not something that can be cured through therapy and attempts to do so have proved very harmful in the past.

Just as long as she/he/they doesn't identify as a 6 year old, I guess.

The gender movement is riddled with regressive stereotypes you only have to look at the trans flag to know that, blue for boys pink for girls. It's pretty much one of the pillars of the movement. Lady brains dontcha know!

I doube dare you to try change Tandora's mind.👍👍

If you don't think what was done to Keira Bell and Jazz Jennings, to pick just two, was an absolute tragedy, then you are beyond reason.

No it isn't, but pretending that body sex isn't releveant to the social expereinces, opportunities, risks and challenges one faces certainly is.

If you can't admit you see sex then you can't talk about sexism.

Trans people aren’t claiming anything that is false - they are claiming something about their experience which is very much real.

Transpeople are very much claiming something that is false, as we all know that it isn't possible for humans to change sex.

If I say I’m hungry, I don’t know if my experience of needing to eat is the same as yours, I just know i am hungry.

Right - but in that sentence, you are saying that the meaning of "hungry", is "needing to eat". You used different words to describe the concept because you know exactly what it is you mean when you say it.

What is the equivalent, to you, of woman? What is the thing you are talking about?

I think you’re both so keen to shoot people down that you forget to read what they actually say.
Women are in far more danger from cis men than they are from trans women. Far more murders, rapes and violence happens at the hands of cis men. It is an overwhelmingly and categoric fact.

Trans people aren’t claiming anything that is false- they are claiming something about their experience which is very much real.

Nobody is saying their experience isn't real. We are saying their experience doesn't have anything to do with being a woman.

How to some people end up knowing/ understanding themselves to be women/ female, despite not having the right chromosomes or genitals, or social rearing? We don’t exactly know: there’s likely a role for a complex variety of genetic and environmental factors - most likely a role for sex hormone signalling aspects of neurodevelopment. Perhaps an element that is social too. We don’t have all those answers.

They don't know themselves to be women/female. They can't know themselves to be women/female, any more than I can know myself to be a cat, a seahorse or a piece of cheese. Being a woman/female is defined by reference to objective criteria and trans women objectively do not meet those criteria.

Sometimes, most of the time, how you feel doesn't change facts.

Trans women know they are female.

This is impossible because they are male.

You are doing no one any favours - least of all trans people themselves - by indulging this pretence.

Even if all this were true doesn't mean they can take women's stuff just because they want it because of the feelings in their head that are unquantifiable.

If you're hungry and decide to go nick a Greggs pasty it's still theft.

I find it less regressive than ‘men are dangerous and women should be protected from them’.

The whole thing is just joyous to me - taking these stereotypes and making them nonsensical, it’s brilliant and as a weapon against the patriarchy, superb. The ladypenis you all hate, fantastic. What could kill toxic masculinity quicker than a ladypenis

Transwomen know they are female.

On the contrary, they're entirely aware that they're men.

That's because there are a lot more men (who don't identify as trans) than there are trans women.

Not because trans women are any less dangerous than other men on an individual level.

'How to some people end up knowing/ understanding themselves to be women/ female, despite not having the right chromosomes or genitals, or social rearing?'

It is logically impossible that any male person 'knows' or 'understands themselves to be women/female'. This simply cannot be ever true.

They can only ever conceptualise themselves this way based on their interpretation of either what they conceptualise female people are or through their rejection of being of the male sex class. There is no way that they can experience life as a female person when their experiences are that of a male person who has labelled what they are experiencing as being the experience of a female person.

No, we don't 'know for sure is that some people observed male at birth developed the awareness/ understanding/ knowledge of self as female'. We can only say that we know for sure is that some people observed male at birth developed the awareness/ understanding/ knowledge of what they believe to be female.

it is important to stick to facts and not make statements that can never be verified or supported with logic.

Needing to be a woman and recognised / accepted as such woman.

Transwomen know they are female.

All of them? I know TW that are perfectly clear they are male - are they lying?

Yes, it's very regressive, perhaps you could go and tell men to stop committing 99% of sex offences and then when that's all sorted women can stop needing to be protected from them.

Again - that's circular. You need to not include the word you're defining in the definition. I was sure you knew this?