Trans hate (I don't) and the same old, same old

[RetiringRita]

Well I've been on a few threads this weekend and the one that's been hijacked yet again was the question of trans hate on mumsnet.
The OP asked for opinions on whether that was a fair statement yet within minutes the question was ignored and the same FWR posters were out in force. They didn't want to answer the question so targeted their posts to state their agenda.

Sex as defined by The Surpreme Court ruling
TW perverts in women's prisons
TW perverts in female loos
Men in dresses
FTM having ASD or mental illness.

It appears those of us who sit on the fence are not entitled to be there. Those who cannot be bullied get shouted down.

I have been called the following :

Hand Maiden
Trans Ally
Not part of the sisterhood
Delusional
Captured
Shameful
Mentally ill
A liar (frequently)
A man

None apply to me.

Am I being unreasonable to ask for some understanding and compassion for trans people who don't fit the stereotypes listed?

So what does being female mean?

Surely people are intelligent enough to work out that 'a woman is anyone who feels like a woman' is circular and therefore logically incoherent.

A woman is a male or female person. A man is a male or female person. The fact that no-one can give a difference between the two suggests either that both words can be used interchangeably - which is transphobic - or that there is an additional criterion required to discern them.

This has been pointed out over and over.

No, that’s bollocks. They are male. They only have a make idea of what a woman is. They are not women. If you took away every gender stereotype, how would they know they were women? You even stated there were circumstances thst males with a trans identity should not be in women’s spaces. Thst means you know fine well they are not women

🤣

Well during C19 when all the public loos were closed

Its nice to have a back up plan and nice loo roll 💅💅

The word transphobic is utterly meaningless these days.

I do think it is less weird to identify as something you have experience of actually being (a younger age than you are now) than something you have never been (the opposite sex).

Perhaps you feel that age 6 was the absolute peak time of your life, the time when you were happiest and living your life to the full, and for that reason you want to be 6 forever. You can't be, obviously, and you would be better off accepting that you will never be 6 again and that other ages have their advantages. But at least you were once 6 so you are basing your desire on lived experience of actually being 6.

How can you identify as something when you have absolutely no frame of reference for being that thing, i.e. the opposite sex?

Being male with gender dysphoria/autogynephilia is a completely different lived experience to being female and not having either of these conditions.

There is absolutely no overlap between the two.

They know they weren’t registered female at birth: they know they don’t have xx chromosomes. They know society doesn’t see them as women: they know these things because they are not in fact delusional or lying (as you all like to assume they are):

What this boils down to is that trans people have an experience which you cannot relate to or understand. Because of that you are assuming it’s false or imaginary or trivial. But it’s not. Just because you don’t understand someone else’s experience doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

They don’t have that in common if they are using “woman” to mean two different incompatible things.

Quite. It would be much more reasonable of me to identify as as a six year old than as a man or a cat.

Despite liking to sleep a lot and have someone else clean the bathroom for me and sort out all my food.

Of course all 3 are totally mad.

It doesn’t matter whether their experience of knowing they are a woman is the same as yours! It doesn’t matter any more than whether my experience of knowing I’m a woman is the same as yours.
Why do you think it does?

Their strategic target was access to women’s prisons for violent male criminals that was seen as the hardest to achieve and success there would see access to another female spaces flow from that.

This was recorded in their meetings on the subject in the 1990s. I’m not sure why you think men have anything to add to feminism as the experience many formerly ‘inclusive’ women have is is that the blokes take over and talk over them.

Yes, they have an experience we cannot relate to and understand, just like we have an experience they cannot relate to or understand (being female).

Almost as if we are two entirely separate groups of people and trying to force us into a single shared category against the will of the majority is batshit insane.

So when Dr Upton said he is a biological woman, how does that fit with not delusional given your first paragraph?

Because they are arguing that we are in the same category and want to use the same word to refer to us both and for them to be included in all our spaces.

If you want access to someone else's space on the grounds that you have something in common with them you need to be able to explain what it is you have in common. And they can't, because there is nothing.

You see, this makes perfect sense to me. And yet you’ve got a lot of catty remarks. I think you’ve been very respectful of other people’s views whilst laying out your logic. What you’ve had in response is just a rude pile on

Tandora spends their life on here regurgitating the same old nonsense that has been debunked time and time again.

We've all just about lost patience with it.

So for one thing we do express a lot of compassion (as we should) to anorexics and there is a good understanding that going ‘but you’re not fat’ is pointless. families tend to have to adopt an awful lot of systems and procedures to support an anorexic - it’s a lot more burdensome than pronouns and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone.

anorexia is also usually understood as not entirely about ‘thinking you’re fat’. body dysmorphia is related, but it’s not a straightforward relationship, especially in severe illness.

Anyway, what does sometimes happen, and you can read court of protection judgements on it, is in some cases the desire of the anorexic to starve themselves to death will be allowed.

this is obviously incredibly sad, tragic and also not common, but it recognises that the way people see themselves, the way they want to be, sometimes overwhelms everything. I personally am glad that the desire to be treated as a different gender isn’t like anorexia, in that allowing it doesnt mean death. I find it an unhelpful comparison really.

No there isn’t. Men who call themselves trans are not women. Even when they are your friends and they and you really think everyone should play along. Most women here, and most other people in society aren’t going to play along though. People have had enough of the overreach and entitlement.

You seem to have quite a stereotype based view of the world judging by some of your comments about who you are and aren’t comfortable with in toilets and how feminine you see your male friends as, so I can see why genderism may appeal. This is a majority female website however, and men’s wants aren’t always centred here.

So, your male friends have experienced negative sexist discrimination since birth just like female people have?

Of course they have hormonal fluctuations just like you while they are on exogenous hormones at levels not produced by their body, and in a body that should not be producing those hormones at that level. But how is this relevant? Is being female about hormone levels and experiencing certain fluctuations? When even female people have a range of different hormone interventions?

The discrimination that your friends experience is that of being a male who believes they are women. They are not experiencing discrimination the same as any female person. They simply cannot experience this. And they will process that discrimination in a way that is only as a male person.

Your points really are very weak. Sure they are yours. But these points are not logically sound and do not support any argument that a male person should be treated as if they are female based on their philosophical belief that doesn't reflect material reality.

They are arguments that as male people they need protections against illegitimate discrimination suiting their own unique needs. I also don't believe that anyone on this thread would disagree with these male people needing protections against illegitimate discrimination.

However, they should be excluded based on the legitimate discrimination as per the exceptions under the EA2010.

No, that’s bollocks

Ok 😂.

Good night all:

you all insist on repeat that no one can explain what being trans is, but the reality is that no amount of explaining what being trans is to you (repeatedly and at length) will tempt you to open your mind even a tiny bit to the idea that are forms of human diversity / experience that are different to yours or that challenge your very basic, narrow assumptions about people and the world.

Ffs, tell us you've completely missed the point why not 🙄

The male victims should of course exercise their right to protect their space.

I'm sure I am not the only woman who would happily support them to keep their stinking toilets to themselves.

Understanding what trans is won't change the reality of what being female is, or the fact that trans women are not female, Tandora.

Thank you xx
Don’t worry, I’m an old hat here and very used to it, I finally lost my patience though 😂.

Are women being unreasonable in expecting not to be vilified and threatened for speaking up about a topic which affects them?

I’m with you OP. It’s ok to have and voice concerns about women’s spaces. It’s absolutely not to use hate speech and be openly transphobic. I’ve know transgender people for over 35 years and not one incident of threatening or abusive behaviour. Quite the opposite.
They’ll always be examples of men using a transgender persona to cheat the system or worse, but men exploiting the system to abuse women happens everywhere including in institutions we supposed to trust, like the police.
I am not some leftie vegan youngster btw, I’m pretty old and pragmatic. I am just vehemently against discrimination in any form including transphobia.