AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

I have repeatedly said England in my posts.

Transitioning is as simple as saying 'I'm a woman'.

A GRC costs £5.

The only definitions of 'gender identity' seem to be what you wear, how you have your hair.

Dysphoria is a sense of feeling unhappy.

These are lifelong changes that are being made to teenagers that will never ever be recoverable. Based on nothing. It's all made up. The biggest amendments to the DSM which is the bible for mental disorders, the guys who wrote the main body of it sat in a meeting room and just made the whole contents up. They thought up of all the issues that patients had and wrote down that each one was a 'thing'. And it was all to get the US insurance companies to pay for 'treatment'. The whole thing was to line their own pockets.

Then stop implying you know it all about prisons. This site is international, Scotland isn’t even a different country.

Good luck @Wordsmithery - we are here, but like someone already said, most of the posters here are an echo chamber of the anti-trans brigade. Anyone supporting trans people are 'captured' and 'don't care about real women'.

But we're here, don't worry!!!

Scotland is absolutely a different country.

Not many of you though, are there? Which tracks with society. Most people don’t share your view.

So are all women (housed in single cells). So what's your point? They still have joint dinner time, time in the yard etc. And in some places (US) joint showers.

It would be lovely if just ONE of you could explain why you think men can become women, at what point this magical change happens and why you think they automatically lose all their male behaviour traits and what evidence you used to make this judgement.

Just one. Please.

They don't have showers in them.

It’s part of the United Kingdom 🙄 If you are a citizen of Scotland you are a citizen of the UK. Subject, rather than citizen, of the King, to be precise. Less pedantry, please, and more reasoned arguments about why a self selecting group of men (or indeed any men) should be considered women.

No it is proven FACT. Read the Cass Review and the WPATH Files.

Self-ID has never been the law. Theresa May tried to bring it in but failed because we fought back. The only law that needs to be repealed as not fit for purpose is the GRA 2004 which was brought in under Blair's government. That is somewhat less of a problem since the Supreme Court ruling. The next step in protecting women and girls is for all organisations to comply with the Equality Act as it is. We'll carry on bringing court cases until they do.

Men who have had their penises removed are still men. The idea that a woman is a man without a penis is incredibly misogynistic. The problem here is not simply 'fear of sexual assault from penises' it is fear of all kinds of sexual assault as well as non-sexual assault, the crimes of voyeurism and indecent exposure, plus the loss of privacy and dignity, loss of the right to associate without men present, loss of the right to same sex care, loss of women's sports and other opportunities meant for them, and the terrible, horrific medical harm that is being inflicted on children and vulnerable adults.

limiting trans rights

Please stop the lies and transperbole. Who is advocating 'limiting trans rights' and just what 'rights' are they?

I'm not sure what your point is here.

You said that it isn't happening in England.

But it is happening in Scotland.

Or are we just handwaving away the experiences of female prisoners in Scotland?

Exactly, women on Mumsnet, and elsewhere, objected strongly to self ID and it was dropped. This was before JKR, Maya Forstater’s case etc etc.

Many transwomen deny they have dysphoria, @StandFirm . It's a lifestyle choice, as they themselves say. Many say they have no intention of having their penis and testicles removed and are happy with them.

So there goes the 'dysphoria' argument.

This is a general question, not just to you, but I'm interested on what grounds the 'trans allies' support Transwomen in women's spaces.

I see the following potential options ...

A) you think these men can sex

B) you think these men's 'gender identity' though undefinable is more consequential than the material reality of women's sex

C) you think men should be just given what they want, regardless of the impact on women

D) you think women's role is to be a support human to men who have various issues/struggles, regardless of the impact on themselves

Or other additional reasons.

Open to the floor, I'd love to understand the reasoning.

I said England.
And you are referring to the UK.
Scotland is not my area of law.

Whoops first one should read A) you think these men can change sex

Then you’re not qualified to comment as dismissively as you did, are you? How things have played out in Scotland is very much an issue for women in the UK.

Seriously? You are denying these peer-reviewed scientific facts?

There is no reasoning with you if you don't know that it has been long understood for DECADES AND DECADES that females can accurately sex a male because it is SO EASY. You're being disingenuous.

And, I hope you don't take any medication that has been tested on mice.

A large number of MN threads which some posters probably consider “hateful” centre on Scotland. There have been two big court cases there, and many other notable events.

Late to the thread, but...

Re Mumsnet and trans people. A few years ago, this was the only place on the internet where people could express dissenting views about trans ideology in public. Reddit had a forum, but shut that down - while keeping its forums celebrating sexual violence against women. So all the gender critical people flocked to Mumsnet. And you get a range of views. Some people become more hardline over time, in response to abuse from the other side. Some didn't.

What support and respect trans people alongside thinking they deserve to live in peace. I would hope most people do share that and at the very least MN. If not work needs to be done and MN needs to be more honest.

The not a true trans argument?

Why are some men taken out of the men classification and placed into the trans classification?

TRA want all and any man who said they are trans to be given the special status of being trans.

Karen White was in prison for stabbing a gay man when he sexually assaulted his female victim. He would have had his own cell but was allowed to freely mix with the women.

In fact the prison system is obliged to provide the women to provide companionship.

And he claimed the knife attack was due to gay panic so his new identity came with 100% NewLesbian.

And his very first name change was due to child abuse allegation

So whats your rules for genuine?

Barbie Kardashian, so dangerous that he had to prove that wanting to stab his mother to death and rape her as she bleeds out did not make him insane, still got to lawfully Self ID into any female space. Irish governments continue to agree that that can be classed as living as a woman.

In the UK you have no right to see a GRC and official ID will be issued without one.

That is what TRA want and if you say you are pro-trans you need to stop hiding behing the only "the genuine ones please" you get the nice ones but you get Karen White too as you advocate