AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Perhaps we don’t want to see posts full of hatred no matter who they are addressed to.

I want someone to define for me in legislative detail exactly what 'trans rights' are, and how they differ from those required for the rest of the human population.

You can limit yourself to the UK for convenience.

If at any point a 'trans right' appears to clash with a woman's right -please explain, once again in detail how this is not the case.

If you could also make the argument for how 'trans rights' is anything other than more 'men's rights' that would be very helpful.

Happy to wait while you gather your sources and citations.

If this is not possible, then it will once again just reinforce what everyone with half a brain knows. 'Trans' is about Men. Men getting what they want and breaking down hard fought for barriers for women's safety and children's safeguarding. It has been a blinder of a play, I will give them that.

This movement adopts different flavours depending on how it accesses its victims, but the victims are always women and children.

Just like usual.

Seriously? You're using a study conducted on mice to prove that men and women can 100% be told apart? The last time I checked mice didn't shower every morning and coat themselves in antiperspirants and perfume to hide their pheromones.

One of the other two studies deliberately creates faces with subtle feminine and masculine differences and then comes to the conclusion that people can spot those differences. No surprises there then.

This argument always comes back to people claiming all sex can be identified by sight while ignoring the fact that at the most feminine end of natural male appearance and most masculine end of female physical appearance there is a huge overla. There are many biological women walking around who would be indistinguishable from men at the more female end of range of the male physique.

And it is damned demeaning to those women to suggest that they are insufficiently female, which is effectively what everyone who claims that men can always be distinguished from women on sight are doing.
.

A doctor?

Mmmmm how brave are you?
Are you brave enough to be honest?

Lets see.....

Based on your training an you answer the questions below?

If you have been told a person has ask to be seen by a male doctor do you expect a female doctor to come in and start a physical exam?

Once asked would you or other staff members ignore the request and to go looking for a female doctor?

Has the female doctor permission to put hands and objects on or in the person?

And that is a mental health issue. You get the sex you're born with. If you have issues with that, it's an issue of the mind, not the body.

I wish one of the self proclaimed trans allies on this thread would address the issue of violence and abuse towards women by trans activists. I've read through the whole thread and can't see it being covered at all.

The abuse and violence, the calls to decapitate a 'terf', visuals extolling the virtues of 'terfs' being hanged, raped, shot in the head, dying in a grease fire, stabbed (stab a terf as a slogan on some fetching cross stitch - nice to see the womanly arts haven't completely died out), requests for 'terfs' to go suck my womanly dick, extolling the joys of punching terf teeth out and chopping off their hands so they can't speak or type, 'arm transwomen', accompanied by a pic of a barbie pink shotgun, pissing in their faces, throwing them in dumpster etc etc etc etc - this is the tip of a very nasty iceberg.

Women's group meetings sabotaged by be-balaclavad thugs beating on doors and windows with sticks and shouting abuse, women having to be escorted on and off premises by the police due to the behaviour of violent trans allies. Women's meetings being cancelled because their safety couldn't be guaranteed.

And yet, MN posters are the hateful ones?

What hatred?

Yes there are radical trans people and "allies" who behave threateningly on marches etc. But you can't therefore say that trans people as a whole are threatening women as a whole.

There are also trans people and allies who get women sacked from their jobs, issue credible death threats, attack and rape and kill women. It’s not just a few thugs on marches.

As for single-sex spaces and services, Ministry of Justice stats show that trans-identifying men are more likely to be convicted of sex offences (usually against women or children) than other men. So all men have to be excluded, whether they claim to be women or not. Otherwise how do you suggest we choose which men are allowed in and which aren’t?

Ok. I’ve lived with a trans person. Still got the mental and physical scars. So I am perfectly within my rights to comment according to you.

so
males with a trans identity are not women. They do not belong in female spaces. Women owe them nothing. The fact people are bending over themselves to prioritise their wants and feelings over those of women shows that they are not seen as women. If they were they would be told to shut up, be kind, minimise their needs etc. Why do the feelings and wants of these men trump those of women?

I've seen it with my own eyes, groups of teen girls draped in the trans flag pretending to be stereotypical men, alongside men old enough to be their grandfathers disguised as stereotypical women.
It's a men's rights movement.

People who want to assault women do so in all sorts of places. In broad daylight, in open spaces, parks, on beaches, buses and trains. In most of the assaults that make the news it is men who the perpetrators not trans women.

I would love it if you could present statistical evidence of numbers of attacks on women by genuine trans women.

The counting dead women website lists every woman killed as a result of male violence. I can’t recall many (any?) of the perpetrators being transwomen

I also wonder about those male prisoners who claim to be transwomen who are doing so because they want to enter female prisons but aren’t trans at all. Just like prisoners who suddenly convert to Islam because they think they’ll get better food.

no one was allowed self ID as self ID and never was the law. What happened was stonewall convinced everyone that it was going to be the law very soon so they might just as well work on that basis.

trans ppl have lost no rights whatsoever

what they have ‘lost’ is the rights they took from women that didn’t belong to them

we want our stuff back

you can’t get away with discrimination on a wholesale level and not expect pushback.

The irony.

This reads that because women are assaulted everywhere there’s no point in protecting our women-only spaces?

Given that many police record 'gender identity' rather than sex, how exactly do you think they'd retain this information? A 'transwoman' who is arrested will be recorded as a 'woman'.

How can you tell a genuine trans woman from a fake trans woman?

What’s the difference between a man pretending to be a woman from a man pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman?

How can we tell a nice man from a not so nice man?

Why do you mention attacks? Why can’t women have their own spaces away from me for privacy and dignity reasons? My partner is lovely, I realise women won’t want to get changed in front of them despite him not wanting to attack anyone.

Why do you front and centre males with a special identity over women?

I also wonder about those male prisoners who claim to be transwomen who are doing so because they want to enter female prisons but aren’t trans at all. Just like prisoners who suddenly convert to Islam because they think they’ll get better food

I sincerely hope you’re not gatekeeping transness - very transphobic of you. We were told if a man says he’s a woman then he is one. Who are you to say he isn’t?

so how do we tell the difference between a man saying he is a woman and a man saying he is a woman when he isn’t?

oh that’s right , we can’t! We have no idea which is why we keep ALL men out because for the trillionth time it’s not about being trans it’s about being a man

And that is a mental health issue. You get the sex you're born with. If you have issues with that, it's an issue of the mind, not the body.

This mindset used to be applied to same sex attraction. Some backwards idiots still think gay conversion therapy works. It does not. I'm sure you know that. I am pointing out that gender dysphoria, in that respect, is not different. You will not get someone who is affected to change because it is fundamentally who they are. Mental health disorders on the other hand don't define the patient, even when they're chronic. Do you understand the difference?

If you have decided that whenever I use the term pro trans I really mean anti feminist then there is no going forward from there. You are literally putting words into people’s mouths. For myself, when I say pro trans that is what I mean. You have decided that I cannot be both pro trans and a feminist. I beg to differ.

I'm putting a load of responses in one post. I took my laptop (no internet) in the car and had all the tabs of this thread open and managed to almost catch up and type replies while waiting for my mum's Dr appointment, so now I'm back home and connected, here they are.

@Freudianflip
These two statements absolutely typify the problems with the arguments made here so thank you!

'Male' is a gender, and as such exists in the minds of each of us. You cannot see someone's gender. You also can't see someone's biological sex, and if you think you can then you are dismissing the huge number of cisgendered but androgynous presenting females out there.

Fine, but the end point of this argument is that people who look like men are asked to use the ladies' loos. Isn't this ridiculous given the 'safety' argument? And yes, transmen can and do look male, before you say they don't.

Male is a SEX. Not a gender. Man can be called a gender. But male is the sex.

I've already answered. They don't look at all male. And they don't have a male body or a penis to rape with. Hence the safety argument.

@PopeJoan2 Is it possible that both sides engender fear in those who don’t quite align with the hatred coming from the two camps?

No it isn't. Males don't fear women. The opposite is true. It's not women giving these males rape threats and death threats, waving signs that we should be raped and decapitated. And doing the traditionally male 'marking their territory' by pissing on statues of feminist icons. Only ONE SIDE is doing that. So please don't give us this 'both sides' bs.

@mugglewump

DryDay I totally agree that women should be concerned about women's rights and safety. I just don't believe trans people are a threat to either of these with the exception of elite sportswomen, but deeper testing is sorting that area out.

Why do you think 'trans people' are a separate human species or something? 'trans people' are not a threat, MALES are a threat. And as males, a fully intact transwomen with their height, strength, and penis are indeed a threat to females in our spaces, and traumatic to rape survivors like me.

@Freudianflip I would agree that they are not. Men posing as women, maybe - although this must be vanishingly rare. Genuine trans identified women? No threat.

(Please give me data if this is incorrect, but I'm not sure there will be any)

Is this a 'no true scotsman' argument? How do you suggest we tell the difference? And transwomen ARE men posing as women. That's the whole point. That is literally the definition.

and,
Practically? I can't. But for the sake of my allyship I wanted to make the point.

And that's our entire point! You want to show allyship to males like a handmaiden. Why won't you show allyship to FEMALES?

and,

Maybe the kind of person who is now effectively outlawed from all facilities? Can't use male toilets (would risk assault/abuse), can't use female toilets for fear of being challenged/not 'passing'. Its a terrible state of affairs!

There is ZERO evidence transwomen are at any risk. In fact, many transwomen themselves say they are perfectly safe in the males, the worst they get is a smirk. Transwomen want validation as women, THAT is why they use the ladies. It's not and never has been about risk (and the fact they reject third spaces PROVES it was never, ever, EVER about safety). They want into the ladies because it is the women in there that validate them. That's all. They have zero risk in the males and they've said it themselves. Gay men also are at no risk, either. And they never demanded into the ladies. You're not very informed about this issue at all and haven't been following it.

#I don't know what happened to the large formatting and I don't know how to fix it, sorry.

Have you never heard of people who 'detransition'?

You left out the bit where Jill asks Kate
‘aren’t you going to get changed’. You don’t get much more male pervy predator than that.

I empathise if someone suffers from any type body dysmorpia, it must be truly distressing. There must be treatment available to help make that disconnect between body and mind instead of cos playing the other sex. Feeling you are not right in your body doesn't actually mean that you are not your birth sex.

What does feeling like a Man or Woman actually "feel" like anyway? This is the crux of my issue. It is lived experiences in the bodies and hormones we have that make us Men and Women, not clothing, stereotyped behaviours or sexual kinks.

I grew up in the 80s, gender bending is not new. Wear what you like, I'm all for guys wearing skirts, eyeliner and nail polish and ladies wearing baggy masc clothes and short hair. In George Michael's words, the clothes do not make the man.

So Mike can wear a dress and call himself Susan, not a problem, but I'm very sorry, he is a man in a dress. He simply does not have those lived experiences growing up that girls do, fear of being attacked or raped by men, inappropriate sexual advances from men 3 and 4 times your age, periods, hormones, expected to smile and defer to men over most things. If you add those things up, surely you can understand the few places where women only spaces are extremely important, they are being eroded in favours of some men with special feelings. I do find interesting that few people have issues with Transmen due the non risk they pose to Men.

Few people posting here have first hand experience of being trans or living with someone who is. That's the bit that pisses me off.

Depends if you think being transgender is what we used to call transsexual - wanting to be the opposite sex - or if you accept the current definition pushed by Stonewall et al that there are gender identities that match sexes (surely a transphobic notion? ) and you have a mismatched pair.

There are loads of us that feel they don't have a gender identity that matches their sex, so would be included as trans.

Personally speaking, it's the constantly shifting linguistic sleight of hand used to state who is/isn't a woman that i find the most aggressive.

Someone just saying 'I'm male, I want to be seen as female, I would hope that in a non-sexist society you wouldn't treat me any differently in most circumstances regardless of my sex but I understand we as a society are deeply sexist and I'd prefer to be given the "woman" expectations and assumptions over the "man" expectations and assumptions... except for the few situations where sex actually matters' would not cause many issues.

People who want to assault women do so in all sorts of places. In broad daylight, in open spaces, parks, on beaches, buses and trains. In most of the assaults that make the news it is men who the perpetrators not trans women.

I never fail to be shocked when I see this argument

Women get assaulted, therefore let's make it even easier for them to be assaulted is an extraordinary flex.

Did you read that paragraph back to yourself before posting? Can't you see how it betrays how little you think of women and their safety? 🤯

And transwomen ARE MEN. It doesn't matter what they're wearing, what they call themselves - women are assaulted by men. So why are you hell bent on giving one group of men special access to women?

Are you “Lindtcurves”? That post wasn’t to you. But for the record, SamiSnail is allowed to frame her beliefs how she wants, and conclude you’re talking spurious nonsense. I agree there isn’t much more to say though.