AIBU to think that MNers are excessively hateful towards trans people?

[Wordsmithery]

I accept that there are huge areas to be addressed when it comes to trans/non-trans rights: toilets and changing rooms, sporting events, prison accommodation, to name but a few. Government has a lot of work to do, listening to people's genuine concerns and drafting laws that protect everyone. And of course biological men masquerading as trans to prey on women are scum.
However, reading some of the many MN threads on trans people, it feels like there is a terrifying level of vitriol at the right of trans people to even exist. I emphasise, this is not about toilets/safe spaces etc. It's about Will's right to identify as Jill, or vice versa. Why does it really matter so much to us - are we scared of people being different? Are MNers failing to speak out because they're terrified of being shot down in flames? How is it hurting any of us if someone chooses to identify as their non-birth gender (beyond the caveats in my first paragraph)? What is the opinion of MNers with children or siblings or best friends who announce they are trans ?
Asking because I'm alarmed by the lack of trans allies (or even trans tolerators) on this forum. And I'm even more alarmed that there may be a reassuring number of trans allies on here but we never hear from them because they know what response they'll get.
No hate please. We seem to have enough of that already.

Almost certainly there are men who manipulate the self id policy adopted for the placement of offenders in the prison estate -

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/transgender-sex-offenders-placed-in-womens-jails-in-scotland/

<a class="break-all" href="https://archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://archive.ph/2022.10.04-232359/www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-scottish-trans-prisoners-changed-gender-after-convictions-pftqbbhg6

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

And they can do this because of a policy which was set by the lobbying group, Scottish Trans, who said -

‘We strategized – we strategized – that by working intensively with the Scottish Prison Service to support them to include trans women as women on a self-declaration basis within very challenging circumstances, we would be able to ensure that all other public services should be able to do likewise’.

It's a deliberate policy which uses vulnerable women as test subjects.

And it still stands.

And under self id and 'acceptance without question', who are you to say that these offenders aren't 'genuine transwomen'? They're certainly treated as if they are by the SPS.

And in the case of 'Amy George' for example, 'she' was well known in the Borders as a transwoman, had presented as such for years, before 'her' crimes. But I'm guessing you would claim that 'she' isn't genuine.

How do you tell?

But @PopeJoan2 if you have an argument why I should believe a self selecting group of men are women that doesn’t rest on insults, smears or emotional blackmail that puts men’s feelings higher than women’s, I’m all ears. Would be great to get one after so long asking.

I also wonder about those male prisoners who claim to be transwomen who are doing so because they want to enter female prisons but aren’t trans at all.

So you're saying some men might lie about their 'gender identity' for their own selfish reasons?

Surely not. We were told that this would never happen.

And how are we supposed to tell the difference between this 'genuine' men pretending to be women and these 'not genuine' men pretending to be women?

Of course I have. Transitioning is such a complicated and tough process that some people have to give up. Won't change who they are though. Even in the cases where they feel they made a mistake, the questioning of their gender identity is a big part of who they are. To be clear, I'm not saying that every person with gender dysphoria should physically transition. Just that it is a defining feature of their identity, regardless of the path that they choose.

Agree.

@DeniseSecunda1
I’m not from the UK or Europe or anywhere remotely similar, and I was SHOCKED at the transphobia here. It’s put me off the UK, but now I see where JK Rowling gets it from.

All JK does is advocate for female only spaces for rape survivors like me. You are confusing WOMENS RIGHTS for 'transphobia'. What happened to you to attack respected feminist heroines when all they do is advocate for the rights of the oppressed sex class? Do you think you will gain male approval by being a handmaiden and spitting on the graves of our foremother feminists?

@Viviennemary It's a silly fuss about a tiny portion of the population.

Males are 50% of the population. Not a 'tiny' population. And males are the predator and oppressor sex class. So it is not a 'silly fuss' at all.

@SternJoyousBee

Cr01ssant55 · Yesterday 17:41

Well they do say that hence the deletions so it most definitely isn’t hyperbolic bullshit.
Show quote history

prove it. Stop reporting the posts and then everyone can see exactly what is being said.

Yes. @Cr01ssant55 can even take screenshots and post them as proof these posts exist. Rather strange they haven't thought to do that.

@Lmox Trans ally here. I believe trans women are women and are also at risk from men just like cis women are. I’ve never met a trans woman who has intimidated me or done me any harm.

Transwomen are males with penis and testicles. In what way is a male with penis and testicles a woman, @Lmox ? And what lived experience of growing from a girl into a woman, getting periods, sexually harassed, whistled at, etc as the OPPRESSED SEX does a person born male have?
Do you also believe Rachel Dolezal, who also attempted to identify into an oppressed class, just as males (transwomen) do, is trans racial and an African American? Or is it just fully intact males with penis and with male strength, male lived experience and male conditioning that you are fine with appropriating the oppressed sex class, and being in intimate female only spaces where RAPE SURVIVORS like me are?

That’s great if that’s how you see it, but they haven’t changed sex and women sometimes need female only spaces without men in.

Gender dysphoria is classed as part of gender incongruence now and listed in the ICD under conditions related to sexual health.

Homosexuality isnt listed because its not a condition. Do you understand the difference?

What’s a ‘gender identity’.

@Dancingintherainxxx I'm a physician in another country in Europe. I think it's well known in the EU how transphobic the UK is in general.

People like JK Rowling who 1) isn't trans and 2) isn't a doctor think they have the right to speak on these matters.

The constant comment I see is that it's threatening to womanhood to have trans women 😂 just laughable. My womanhood had nothing to do with anyone else let alone trans people .

The bathroom comments too! If anyone was to assault someone, they'll do it. They don't need a bathroom to.

People fear what they do not understand.

If you are a physician you will know biological sex matters. All JK does is advocate for female only spaces for rape survivors like me. You are confusing WOMENS RIGHTS for 'transphobia'. What happened to you to attack respected feminist heroines when all they do is advocate for the rights of the oppressed sex class? Do you think you will gain male approval by being a handmaiden and spitting on the graves of our foremother feminists? As a female and a survivor of DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HERSELF, JK has the right to speak on issues affecting WOMEN. JK not being trans is the same argument that males are not females. Transwomen are not female. So therefore don't understand our lived experience as the oppressed sex. Yes, it IS threatening to have FULLY INTACT MALES (transwomen) in our spaces. Spaces are segregated by SEX. It's not just about safety, it's about privacy and dignity, away from the male gaze. Why do you suppose toilets and change rooms are segregated by SEX, in the first place? Yes, RAPE SURVIVORS like me, as well as Domestic Violence victims and women and girls in general have been taught since the dawn of time to fear the MALE SEX. And it doesn't matter if that male is wearing a suit and tie, or a dress. The male sex are the predator and oppressor sex. Females fear of males is WELL JUSTIFIED.And clothes don't change that. A physician who trained in biology would know this.

If a burglar is determined to break into your house nothing will stop him, so why bother locking your house doors? That's the same lame argument that you offer when you suggest we throw our hands up in the air, give up all safeguards and say 'who cares they'll do it anyway'. Your argument is absolutely disgusting and as a rape survivor I feel sickened reading it.

I believe trans women are women

Why do you believe that?

Left alone, 80% of children who express gender incongruence will desist.

If you’re using “bathroom” as a twee word for toilet then maybe, if you’re using it for shower, you’re wrong. There have been recent cases in several countries including the UK where women had to shower together with men.

Then why all the massive tantrums since the Supreme Court ruling?

You haven’t been to every prison in the world, have you?

Will YOU stop, @Dancingintherainxxx . Trans people are not a third species. They are either male or female. And MALES in FEMALE ONLY SPACES affects womens rights to safe intimate female only single sex spaces. More ways MALES claiming they're transwomen affect female rights. It's clear you're not informed at all on this and think trans people are some mythical third sex or different species of human.

Yes, I’d very much like to hear this too.

Remember the words of Shona Robison in the Scottish Parliament, shortly before the Isla Bryson situation came to light.

It does put trans allies in a bit of a quandry though.

Either admit there are predatory men who will take advantage of a self id 'you are who you say you are' approach or admit that there are what they would call 'genuine transwomen' who commit crimes against women.

And therefore, all males should be kept out as you can't tell the difference

But it just usually rolls back around to 'well, you're going to get attacked anyway so...' which is sickening.

There is a PUSHBACK on males calling women to be raped until our uterus bleeds, telling is we should be skinned alive, be burned alive, be decapitated, etc. And pissing on feminist statues.

And you really cannot understand the pushback from feminists to this VIOLENT AND HATEFUL behaviour from males, @1000YearsRumination ?
Get back to us when women do or say any of this to transwomen/males (taken from another poster on another thread). THIS is REAL vitriol, disgust and hatred. THIS is what you align yourself with. Stop gaslighting and DARVOing women for rightfully PUSHING BACK on this violence against the female sex class:

JKR has as much right to comment on these issues as “trans people” do and women on Mumsnet do. That’s because we are women and affected and we aren’t required to be silent while men tell us what to do any more, it’s not the 18th century.

Reposting posts you have just reported for being vile, purposefully inflammatory and full of hate is a ridiculous thing to suggest as any quotes will also be deleted and actually the reason for reporting is people don’t want to see it.

Re going on to accuse me of being a misogynistic woman hater for doing so is again inflammatory nonsense.

Transwomen are sharing showers with female prisoners in Scotland.

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/ex-prisoner-shaking-fear-sharing-29075541.amp

This is an abuse of the human rights of females.

If you are asking me directly I never said it did. This is a thread about hatred not the law or who's a trans ally or not.

So you don't think doctors should have criminal records checks because "they'll just do it anyway"? And you don't think your patients deserve to have single sex care? No male doctor ever abused anyone?
If you're a doctor who thinks people can change sex remind me not to come to you.