To think that most parents find saying ‘no’ to children very difficult?

[Mumbletoomuch]

I’m struggling with the fact my very reasonable friends seem incapable or scared of saying no to their children.

Child wants to eat the last homemade cupcake (second helping) when everyone else has had one? Of course. Just eats the icing off and wastes the rest? Just laughs it off

Child has friends over to play but wants to watch telly for hours straight? Meaning the play date is a TV marathon? Of course

Child wants huge monster slushy at a birthday party, when the hosts have provided squash? Of course. Many other children then start whining at their parents for the same? Of course

Child wants to role play with parent while they’re having a conversation with a friend? Of course. This means the adult conversation is disjointed and pointless, not a problem.

I’ve become self-conscious about how many boundaries and ‘no’ I give to my children, or if it is legitimately annoying and lazy parenting. We go on holidays, we do fun things, I play with them, we watch TV, they eat sweets, but I say no to a lot during the day. I would say no or boundary set in all the above examples.

AIBU?

@SleeplessInWherever Context is key. PP was saying people are feeling insecure due to her poor parenting, I said it would be more likely they'd be feeling smug.
Sorry if you’re so insecure in your own parenting that you need others to adjust theirs so you can avoid saying no, but that’s on you
This doesn't even make sense as I am saying parents need to learn to say no, not avoid saying no 🤦🏼‍♀️

Also it's not about the slushy, it's about behaviour and social etiquette, and teaching your kids to be decent human beings where they can't always get what they want and the world doesn't revolve around them. So yes of course people will judge, as they should.

That quote wasn’t from me.

I think that parents should do less judging of one another, generally.

It’s not up to me how firm you are with your children, and it’s not up to you to decide when others should give in.

Someone rolled their eyes at me on holiday, for preventing an autistic child from running in the road. We get the occasional tut.

This may be a different kind of judgment we’re talking about, but it’s symptomatic of the same issue - people taking parental superiority which is absolutely needless.

I know the quote wasn't from you, but that was what you were referring to in your comment (sorry forgot to quote it). People judge because badly behaved kids because they ruin it for everyone else eg When the kid starts kicking off when they can't get a slushy at birthday party ... because they are always used to getting their own way because they don't hear no. Imagine what the adult version of this will be. If it didn't affect us we wouldn't care.

I have no trouble saying no (though I had a mum who did). But you don’t have to say no to everything. I don’t care sometimes if my child eats the last cupcake (someone has to, that’s why I made them). I don’t care sometimes if kids watch tv or a movie on a play date (grown ups have friends over to watch a movie all the time). I have no trouble saying no to things I generally need to say no to, but I also know how to unclench. There is a difference between being uptight and being rude.

Okay, so genuine question.

If it’s a birthday party and child wants a slushy, there are 10-15 other kids there.

Do you want the parent to say no, so child doesn’t “get their own way,” and therefore you’ll have to observe the kick off?

Or do you want them to say yes, so the birthday child’s event isn’t “spoiled” by a disregulated child?

There’s no win here. The child either gets a drink that they want, which is hardly life or death, or apparently everyone has deal with the consequences.

Like I said in my original reply. Some things are absolute no’s. Choices of beverage aren’t one of them, it’s not that big of a deal and certainly not always worth the fall out. Sometimes, kids can have what they want.

But isn't the point the kid kicks off became they're used to getting their own way? I appreciate I'm basing this on my DC and the children I know, but there would be no scenario where a child would even want a slushie, and in the unlikely scenario they did ask for one, it would be a simple no and that would be that.

I can give you an example, the other day we were in a shop and overhead a mother tell her children the toys weren't for sale, and we had a laugh about that. My friends aunt then said in her day "you'd just say no you can't have that". This is purposely what I do, my DC will say mum can I have an icecream, and I will say no, not today. All I'm saying it's good to say no, because once you're an adult you'll hear it an awful lot.

Well because, politely, that’s not how all children work.

My nephew isn’t ND, but he’d at least whinge. It doesn’t mean that they never hear no, it means they’re struggling to accept that one.

Some people have to choose which hill to die on, and they might do that based on the judgemental audience around them, or just because they’ve already died on enough hills that day.

We can’t say no to everything, they are allowed things sometimes, and if a particular “no” isn’t for an absolute non-negotiable than there is more room for just saying yes.

But isn't the point the kid kicks off became they're used to getting their own way? I appreciate I'm basing this on my DC and the children I know, but there would be no scenario where a child would even want a slushie, and in the unlikely scenario they did ask for one, it

Not necessarily. The child may be tired and struggling to accept “no”, they may rarely get a slushie and had in their mind that mum might say yes, they might be hot and overstimulated. In the same way adults can react differently depending on circumstances and their mood. Adults hopefully have the skill to moderate their response but children are still learning.

I think there's so many variables to this though. My ds would generally be very good at accepting me saying no to him and he knows that no means no. However, if he's overly tired/ hungry/overstimulated/ coming down with something, that's a completely different story, in that instance he would absolutely kick off and get very upset. In those moments I might be inclined to pick my battles (or especially how I phrase the 'no') more carefully if a tantrum could affect others around us, for example at a party. Its nothing to do with not being used to hearing 'no' because he hears it all the time and its stuck to, but because he's a child and in that moment he's operating from a dysregulated place and as his parent, I'll be able to identify that quicker than anyone else. You won't know that if you're just observing a snapshot of a child's day. Adults are allowed to have bad days, so are kids. I think sometimes we forget kids are still learning and that means sometimes they'll get it wrong, we can't just jump to the conclusion that the parenting is just bad. Plus think of all the parents who are navigating the likes of fostering/adoption and children are learning to navigate new boundaries. That's a lot when you're little. I think it's possible to say no but still have empathy for how big that can feel for children.

@SleeplessInWherever @Jellycatspyjamas
I find those responses depressing. This isn't saying no to a slushie at a amusement park this is at another child's birthday party with your peers and friends. Anyway, clearly we see differently, I do appreciate you didn't use SEN as the underlying excuse.

@Lavender14 Now the child is fostered or adopted?! Well that's certainly original for MN 🙃

Do you want the parent to say no, so child doesn’t “get their own way,” and therefore you’ll have to observe the kick off?

Or do you want them to say yes, so the birthday child’s event isn’t “spoiled” by a disregulated child?

Depends a bit on whether we are talking about a child with SEND, or one who is just a bit overstimulated. In the first situation, you do what you need to do, but I’d explain to the parent why I was bringing in external food and drink.

In the second situation, I have generally removed DS to calm down a bit, and brought him back when he was a bit calmed and more able to join in again. I also take that time to explain that nobody else was doing xyz, and we could do it when we were by ourselves but in a group class (or at somebody else’s party) we do what everyone else does. He was 4 at the time and was able to grasp the concept, so I wouldn’t expect an older child to struggle too much. They cope in school.

I wouldn’t give DS a slushy or anything else to stave off an overtired tantrum - I’d just take him home if I could tell he was on the brink.

But at a place that sells slushies and presumably has children drinking them within the establishment? Tango slushy machines are everywhere we have one in our local premier

but surely there are quite a lot of children who seeing the machine would ask and then accept the they are not included in the birthday party?

I’d expect most children old enough to be invited to a birthday party to be able to understand that and accept it, yes.

My kids are indeed adopted and had to navigate a complete change of home, parents and wats of being parented at a stage when they would be considered old enough to know. Possibly why I’m not too stuck on doing what everyone else is doing and can understand how hard it can be for kids to self regulate, and how changeable that capacity can be depending on circumstance and general mood.

Do you think these kids don't exist? I work with a lot of families with this makeup and it can be hard as they don't come with a warning label that lets people know. Nor is anyone entitled to that child's family history. It can become very isolating for parents of kids with sen or trauma when others are so quick to judge, never mind the impact on the kids themselves is the point I'm trying to make.

On the whole I completely agree with all your examples. However just to clarify with some SEN/ND children, being on a screen isn’t allowing them free reign and us avoiding saying No, it’s channeling their behaviour so we aren’t constantly having to interrupt those around us. If we’re having a meal in a restaurant it would be - No don’t throw the menus, No don’t bother the waitress all evening, No you can’t drink from the condiment bottles, No you can’t stand on the table, No you can’t pull up a chair and have a chat with those people we’ve never met whilst they eat. My anxieties around this would be sky high! Saying Yes to a screen, isn’t giving in, it’s stopping all hell reigning loose so other people can enjoy their meals.
Hope that doesn’t come across as ranting or I’ve misunderstood what you were saying!

Edit: haven’t RTFT so may have just waffled what has already been said

For me personally I would expect the parent to say “No, we are here for Xs birthday party, here’s some squash if you’re thirsty”

The only reason a child would ‘kick off’ is if they’re used to no not being a firm boundary. If said child does kick off I’d be much more impressed by a parent who is able to be clear and follow through than one that panders to a tantrum.

I remember not long after my kids were placed with me going to a family party. On the way we stopped at McDonald’s with the kids and I brought a shop bought birthday cake for my DD (the party was close to her birthday and the family member hosting kindly suggested I bring a cake to sing happy birthday).

When we arrived certain family members made comment about the day glow icing on the bought cake - I’m a very good baker and would usually make one. They also were very sniffy when my kids spoke about stopping at McDonald’s and I had thinly veiled comments about kids needing to hear “no”.

Those relatives hadn’t considered that, for these kids everything had changed, their friends, their family, what they wore, what they ate. McDonalds was the only familiar food for them - even cooking familiar meals using the same brands tasted different and strange to them. They always had a shop bought birthday cake, home made cake didn’t equate to birthday cake for them. So I bought the cake and the happy meal.

They wouldn’t know that if there was a cup cake left, they should leave it for “manners”, and they probably would ask for a slushy and find it hard when I said “no”, their social rules were completely different and they needed time to cope with the massive changes in their lives. People looking on would just see kids “who have never been told no”, I knew these were deeply traumatised children trying to make sense of their world.

Mind you it’s easier to sit in judgement than think you might not have the whole story, or even knowing the whole story, understand the nuances of parenting needed.

I think sometimes we forget kids are still learning and that means sometimes they'll get it wrong, we can't just jump to the conclusion that the parenting is just bad. Plus think of all the parents who are navigating the likes of fostering/adoption and children are learning to navigate new boundaries. That's a lot when you're little. I think it's possible to say no but still have empathy for how big that can feel for children.

I often tell my son this when his toddler sister does something that he doesn’t understand. She’s little and still learning just like you were and are and he also reminds me of the same when she has made a mess for the umpteenth time.

I agree people sometimes forget that children are still learning while also thinking people forget what it’s like to be a child and still learning and trying to understand things that don’t yet make sense especially when it comes to rules and etiquette.

Mind you it’s easier to sit in judgement than think you might not have the whole story, or even knowing the whole story, understand the nuances of parenting needed.

Absolutely agree with this as well as other parents assuming that the behaviour and expectations that they have for a child (dependent on age) is the same as others and that other parents are just annoyed as them by said behaviour.

But presumably the adults are using the cafe and facilities etc of the place.

This isn’t a hall party it must be at a soft play type place where the party is held - adults often go and purchase extra at all inclusive parties/events/hotels to be the upgrade

child often goes to this place and has a slushie so the association is there.

I think it can often be tricky to strike the balance of the right level of expectations for children based on age (and we have no idea what age they are), between being age appropriate, no expectations and the one that gets me the most - higher expectations than we do adults. Because I guarantee if a party is held and beer/wine/soft drinks are included at least one guest buys themselves a drink not included

It’s just social etiquette at a birthday party.

To be honest I thought it was universal I’ve been very surprised by the amount of adults on this post not seeing the difference between the same things at different scenarios. Like slushy at birthday party vs with group of friends etc

To be honest i would rather people didn’t say no if all they’re going to do is give in anyway… it bothers more when people say no .. then change it to yes after the kids have a tantrum

But that is my point is it - what is the exact etiquette for a party where it is at a soft play or trampoline place and the party invite includes access to it alongside the public and with things such as a cafe being open. The children in the OP must be young as parents are staying - are they using the cafe or drinking squash.

There are many events such as birthday parties/office parties/weddings were certain things are included and others are available to buy at the bar if the guest wishes. And I suspect many do

Depends, if dysregulated and struggling with noise etc by usually very reasonable ADHD/likely autistic 7 yr old might fixate on something like a slushy. We had an episode unexpectedly at a 5th birthday party last year, for whatever reason he was struggling. Basically I got him a slushy at the end to get him out. It was his first whole class party and where we learnt that parties of more than about 20 kids, better to decline the invitation but h til you know you don't know and you need to manage an unexpected meltdown.

And I don't mean a tantrum I mean an overstimulated loss of control