For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

How big are the class sizes? 28-30 was average when i was at school, but it wasn’t unheard of to have 30-33. This was back in 70-80s.

As I've already said, I don't know. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't.

Regardless, it's the only option available so that my disabled child can access the education he is entitled to. That is my priority.

Quite right. Just as it the OPs priority not to be forced, bullied or coerced into doing a difficult and plausibly harmful job unless she agrees to it and is trained for it.

We all have our priorities.

That's very true.

Don't get me wrong, I hope they haven't been forced and I do feel bad if they have but I just don't see any other option. Especially an immediate option.

So… what… you’d just leave a little kid in your care sat in their own poo, because your “dignity and human rights”?

Truly unhinged .

It would be best if she left, too.

You should probably have a lie down, you seem riled.

I've no idea

There it is.

Children clean themselves up with TAs ensuring they have everything they need to do so
Parents supply wipes etc in kids bags if they regularly have accidents
Parents supply kids have spare clothes ……..ditto….
For those where it’s a one off accident the school supply wipes, tissues etc.

Letter/ email home to parent about the incident with advice on where they can get support

"SENCo is responsible for special needs."

No. Check the teacher standards:
TS1: establish a safe and stimulating environment for pupils, rooted in mutual respect
Part 2: Teachers uphold public trust in the profession and maintain high
standards of ethics and behaviour, within and outside school, by:
o treating pupils with dignity, building relationships rooted in mutual
respect, and at all times observing proper boundaries appropriate
to a teacher’s professional position
o having regard for the need to safeguard pupils’ well-being, in
accordance with statutory provisions

A SENCo is a coordinator of SEN. Their teacher is responsible for the child's education. Education extends beyond the academic.

That is not me saying that you must be the person to change a child after an accident. You certainly shouldn't be doing that regularly, because it will impact your teaching and the progress of every child. You are also within your rights to refuse to do it, because intimate care is not in your job description (there is case law that it is not covered under "any other duties at the discretion of the headteacher". But it is not treating them with respect to just say that no-one will deal with it and say "not my problem." A teacher must work with the SENCo to raise issues, develop an intimate care plan and implement it.

It is also not me denying that some children (and quite possibly an increasing number) are not toilet trained because their parents are neglectful. That is undoubtedly true. These children are highly disadvantaged and deserve the best teaching and pastoral support. If they are not given that, the impact of their neglectful parenting will be compounded. They will have a high chance of growing up to be neglectful parents themselves unless someone teaches them a better way. Like their teachers, perhaps.

Neglectful parents do not stop being neglectful because they are called into school every day to change their child. The neglect in toilet training is likely to be the tip of an iceberg, and staff should be on the lookout for other signs.

Interesting find whilst googling

Willand School in Devon are advertising for a teaching assistant and part of the job description is intimate hygiene care
So it seems the rising problem in this area is changing the nature of TAs jobs.

After reading your last paragraph
Do you report Neglectful parents to social services

Oh yeah, I supply everything and wouldn't expect the school to do that at all.

He has his regular school backpack and then his changing backpack with wipes, pads, changes of clothes etc.

Due to his physical disability, he can't clean himself up so someone has to do it for him.

My comment wasn’t about disabled children tbf. I would assume they would and should receive support by others.

Nah. The projection is very real though. Maybe make your self a nice cup of tea and take some reality tablets 😆

What a weird suggestion. The 6 year old would go to the loo and wipe up their own shit and piss, obviously, like all the other kids do.

And if they are unable to do that they can't be in a mainstream school or their parents must immediately become involved in discussions to ensure that a plan is put in place to support them, another great reason to phone their parents and get them to come in and support their 6 year old child if they shit and piss themselves in the classroom.

But all of this has already been covered extensively, of course.

What decent people won't do is force a minimum wage worker with no training and no safeguarding plan in place, who has not accepted the job of personal care and piss and shit wiper for a 6 year to clean up piss and shit and offer intimate personal care for a 6 year old.

Aside from the coercive bullying that would involve, as well as stripping the employee of their dignity and rights it can - as you know - be a health hazard to clean up piss and shit, that's why only those who have accepted that in their role and have had training are obliged to do it.

It's not at all complicated.

It's also been covered that no child who is incontinent but otherwise capable of accessing mainstream education is ever going to be accepted into a special school. Even if they physically can't change themselves due to a disability.

That's not relevant to the discussion and has already been addressed repeatedly, even in the comment you responded to.

"or their parents must immediately become involved in discussions to ensure that a plan is put in place to support them, another great reason to phone their parents and get them to come in and support their 6 year old child if they shit and piss themselves in the classroom."

If a 6 year old child is shitting and pissing themselves due to a disability the parents already know this and will have had the relevant conversations and put plans in place prior to them starting school.

If the parents are so neglectful as to be unaware of it, it's great that they are called in to the school to support their child and have plans put in place, and at that point social services should be involved as there are zero engaged parents who don't know their child is disabled to the point of being unable to clean up their own piss and shit.

If it's a new event and unexpected, the parents must still be called in to discuss it and put a plan in place, and such assessments are the remit of the school.

Under none of these circumstances is it required, correct or acceptable to demand that a minimum wage untrained staff member to do something potentially risky with no safeguarding in place that they have not agreed to do.

Why the obsession with the minimum wage issue.

If it is deemed unacceptable for someone whose job description does not include intimate care and they have not had training how much they earn is completely irrelevant.

Why the obsession with trying to force minimum wage untrained employees to give intimate care to 6 year olds and clean up piss and shit when they have not agreed to do so?

That doesn’t answer my question

( of note I’m against TAs carrying out intimate care )

I don’t know your answer.
Well I know what I think but I don’t get why you think a certain wage makes a difference which is why I asked you

Your post is very rude but I guess you know that too

It's not ok to expect someone to do something just 'because there's nobody else'.