For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

A lot of you ask "who does it then?".

I'll tell you who does it. A woman. A woman who does not have that responsibility, but will feel the pressure to do it, well, because she is a woman and is the default sex to clean someone else's piss and shit.

More and more younger women are challenging that expectation, and personally I am glad. That way the schools may finally fulfill their obligation and hire someone who is trained to do intimate care, and stop relying on random women to do it out of internalised responsibility.

Some of you say that cleaning up soiled children "is not disgusting". it may not feel disgusting to you when you're cleaning your own child, but believe me, cleaning anyone else's shit and wiping their bums and genitals IS disgusting.

I am a midwife. I absolutely love my job. Part of my job is dealing with bodily fluids. Sometimes some poo during childbirth. And that's fine. It's not pleasant, but it's part of my job.

But if it became the norm that women had "accidents" that required me cleaning them up and changing their soiled clothes several times over their antenatal and postnatal care, and cleaning shit became a significant part of my job, then I would change careers. Because it is unpleasant, and I trained for this job with the understanding that it would be something occasional.

It's really not that hard to understand.

Can we just be serious for a second 😂

Surely nobody believes that this 6 year old needing personal care is because his parents are lazy. It’s absolutely not convenient to still be changing a child of that age, and it isn’t easier.

It’s either some sort of need - physical or developmental, or circumstances at home that make that child vulnerable.

OP says the children don’t have need. She’s a 20 year old brand new TA, I’m not convinced I’d be sharing the minute details with her just yet.

It could well be an undiagnosed need. But a child isn’t getting to 6, not toilet trained, without questions already being asked.

There will be a reason, OP just doesn’t know it.

I wouldn't want anyone to feel forced into changing my child and I wouldn't want my child changed by someone who didn't want to do it. That isn't nice or dignified for either. I would prefer to go in to school myself and frequently do for various reasons but it is extremely difficult as I would have to give up work if I had to go in every time and then that would have many other implications. It also distresses my child every time I go in because then I have to leave her again.
If only we had a fairy godmother to fly in and sort everything out but instead we have to muddle through and deal with any difficulties in the best way we can with limited resources and support.

I'm a primary teacher, the moment I get told I'll have to change nappies. I'm out. Literally done. I'd rather do agency work which is abundant anyway, I'll get paid a higher daily rate then I can do tuition work to. No planning or additional stress either. Plus, on top of this my degree is one of national curriculum subject so I can easily do agency work in secondary school where they're crying out for teachers.

Each and every time parents will be called in to clean their child and change the nappies. They can explain to their employers what is happening and why their child isn't toilet trained. I'm sure this will shame them into being toilet trained rather than passing the buck onto someone else. I will also involve social services and senco for analysis to cover all bases.

And NO, I do not think its appropriate to pass the nappy changing onto my TA. She is there to help the pupils education and progress, not clean up neglectful parents who cannot parent their children. Those are the ones who are truly ignorant.

I’ll bite.

What if that kid has a need, undiagnosed or otherwise. You’re just not meeting it, not your responsibility?

You’d rather that child stayed in that mess for the length of time it took parents to get there?

What if it’s trauma, or an emotional response. Still ringing parents, who may or may not be the cause?

6 year olds don’t just soil themselves for no reason. I taught one years ago who “protest pooed,” usually because he didn’t want to do maths. Mainstream primary. That’s still a need, it’s a behavioural and emotional need.

If parents are going to take an hour to get there; let’s say, it blows my mind that you’d leave a child in that condition for that long.

It's not my responsibility because I'm a primary teacher, senco is responsible for special educational needs. Senco is responsible for children to receive the support and care they need. I'm there to teach, that's it.

As many people have said, an accident here and there is fine. many people are reasonable and accepting pupils make silly mistakes. That's fine, they're children. But, I am not changing nappies on a daily basis and disrupting the education of 29 other children in my care for 1 child.

Parents being an hour away is simply not my problem, they need to be responsible for their child's potty training. Schools are now having to teach children how to brush their teeth, what next?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq85d7k1kdpo

^ is this the teachers fault too that "Third of Blackpool 5-year-olds have tooth decay - MP"?

When will parents take responsibility of their own children?

It's not my responsibility because I'm a primary teacher, senco is responsible for special educational needs. Senco is responsible for children to receive the support and care they need. I'm there to teach, that's it.

As many people have said, an accident here and there is fine. many people are reasonable and accepting pupils make silly mistakes. That's fine, they're children. But, I am not changing nappies on a daily basis and disrupting the education of 29 other children in my care for 1 child.

Parents being an hour away is simply not my problem, they need to be responsible for their child's potty training. Schools are now having to teach children how to brush their teeth, what next?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cq85d7k1kdpo

^ is this the teachers fault too that "Third of Blackpool 5-year-olds have tooth decay - MP"?

When will parents take responsibility of their own children?

Nailed it. That is exactly the issue. The child led stuff is ridiculous, given kids can be properly trained by 2 and in fact it's much harder to train them after 3.

I also run an education recruitment agency, and upon leaving teaching have worked in the recruitment industry for 10 years - I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news…

Agency staff are paid 195 days of the year. Even paid to scale, which they’re often not, you won’t earn more.

Secondary schools want QTS Secondary, in that subject, and ideally recent experience teaching at that level. Which I’m guessing you don’t have.

They’re not crying out hard enough to pay primary teachers to cover secondary staff. Because experience, and also budgets.

If they would potentially take you, it would be as an unqualified teacher (because your QTS isn’t secondary) which hugely affects your daily rate.

Agency is unlikely to be the answer you think it is.

That's not true, where I'm based but ok :) I mentioned I'd get paid a higher daily rate, not the whole year. Please read clearly.

That poster’s earlier posts on the thread made it clear they think additional needs, even complex additional needs, are an ‘excuse’ and that it is because parents ‘can’t be bothered’ and are ‘neglectful and uncaring’.

I think it is fairly common to have undiagnosed SEN even in year one, so if it isn't one child in this year it will be another. They need a pre-agreed care plan with you and training. I think it is a bit naive to assume you could cherry pick year groups to work with and not end up doing personal care at some point. It is not a rare event to deal with this sort of thing in primary schools.

The school shouldn't discriminate based on disabilities or developmental delay either and keep calling the parents up to make a point. It needs to be a part of the provision they provide.

If you don't allow toilet breaks when kids need them, and force them to wait until transition times you will get accidents too.

Oh, you live somewhere where staff don’t need to be qualified and supply staff get paid all year round?

I know lots of people that would love to live there. 6 weeks of being unpaid coming up for most of them!

Did you miss the post where the teacher said 6 kids in her class started school in nappies, 4 of them they toilet trained and one of those kids came back after the holidays in nappies "because it was easier for the parents". Two had a genuine need. That's really the growing issue, in the majority of cases it's because the parents haven't toilet trained.

I’ve engaged for all of 5mins, and I think I can work out who the uncaring one is.

You clearly don't know how to read. I said I get paid a higher daily rate THEN I can make up more money by doing tuition throughout the half term holidays. THEN, I added no headache of planning.

"I'd rather do agency work which is abundant anyway, I'll get paid a higher daily rate then I can do tuition work to. No planning or additional stress either."

Where did I say here I get paid for the whole year?

It sounds like emotional blackmail.

And I can figure out you're one of the parents who can't potty train her children or teach them how to brush their teeth ;) oops.

It’s well known supply staff are chronically underpaid, and don’t get pay rises in line with inflation or teacher pay reviews. There are agency teachers still on £125 a day, which is below M1.

Schools, particularly primary, will generally pay to scale at an absolute maximum. That would make you on the same rate, not higher.

The reason I say at maximum, is because in most cases if a school can have either you at scale, or someone else for less - they’d take someone else.

Wellll I could. If he wasn’t severely developmentally delayed, doubly incontinent and didn’t have a myriad of disabilities. He does brush his teeth tbf.

You’re free to have a go at toilet training though!

He was in mainstream for EYFS (LA decision, before you start), and the idea he’d have a teacher like you who clearly doesn’t care about the physical wellbeing of the kids in their care, makes my skin crawl. I’d sooner home educate.

I feel so sorry for the children in this post. For whatever reason their needs are not being met. On top of that it is suggested they ought to wait, soiled, for their parent to arrive to clean them up. I feel really sad about that. There are those in every profession, sector, community that go above and beyond - and thank goodness for that. They will ensure that children are treated with compassion, dignity and respect when they need it most.

I wouldn't say this ought to be in a job description - not every single task will ever be in a job description. Society will continue to fail the vulnerable if we take a 'its not my job' stance when things are yucky. You will go further, and have better impact, by looking for solutions - for prevention (e.g. toilet reminder every 40 minutes for child with wet accidents) and safe solutions when prevention doesn't quite work.

That doesn't correlate with the adverts I have seen on Google and agencies I have spoken to. I have seen adverts from £160-230 in my area. Here is an example. I have deleted the area for privacy reasons. Again, sounds like you're trying to cut corners by paying less.

Look, you're placing the blame on wrong people. There needs to be more SEN schools made rather than mainstream. The government have let the children down, whilst theirs flourish in private education. Its misplaced anger.

Clearly you have no experience of dealing with toileting issues. Parents of a school age child who continues to soil are probably at their wits end and have tried everything they can, and are probably on a long waiting list for expert help. No child is doing this maliciously or deliberately. No parent is 'allowing' it because they can't be bothered. A friend of mine had a 9 year old who regularly soiled himself. She was appalled and distraught that nothing that was suggested to them worked to resolve it.