For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

But you also can't leave a child in their own faeces for a prolonged period of time as that is neglect

What would happen if the children got sick whilst at school, would you refuse to clean them up then also?!

Neglect by the school, and neglect by the individual teaching staff responsible for that child.

But your child had a bowel function issue. The OP indicated there’s no known or suspected medical reason for the situation that she’s talking about in her post.

I was going to ask the same thing.

Should parents be called to clean up vomit from their child too and they be left soaked in sick until a parent can get there from work?

My daughter went through an anxiety stage at that age, and was too fearful to ask to go to the toilet so had many accidents including bowel movement. One time she was that anxious she sat in wet clothes at school because she was scared to tell the teacher. She didn't trust the teacher in year 1. It took me ages to get to the bottom of what was going on in school.

If the kid doesn't have SEN why does an adult need to get involved in them changing if they peed themselves?

As for pooing, I'd say the kid needs to see a doctor or the parent needs to be called in to change them.

I'd understand if it was a nursery, or even reception occasionally but at that age I think it's not reasonable for staff to have to deal with doing it on a regular basis.

As a parent of a SEN 5yr old still in nappies, no you are not being unreasonable. I wouldn't be happy about you changing my child without you completing the intimate care training required especially as you admit you are not a parent and dont have experience in changing children that requires you to clean intimate areas or even without cleaning having genitalia on show. I'm not saying you'll magically become not a risk after you've had the training, im not looking at it from a risk/peado way at all, simply for your comfort and the child's you should have the knowledge you will gain with the correct training before you are asked to complete these tasks

Yeah I don’t blame you one bit. I have been asked to take up responsibilities that are neither within my job description nor conducive to my prospects of promotion. I usually say “yeah for another £10k per year” and because I’m also in the public sector my boss says “well obviously not” and that’s the end of the discussion.

I would give a very clear refusal.

Then hopefully you'd be asked to leave or given a warning for misconduct.

Children shouldn't be in school until they are clean

Unfortunately that's not what the law says.

She may have said no SEN but not actually knowing of the child has a bowel issue, which I’d argue they obvs do as no typical 6yr old shits themselves in front of their peers on purpose!

The school should call parents to change the child covered in poo.

Schools should not be requiring parents to attend school to deal with accidents. The supporting pupils at school with medical conditions statutory guidance covers this. It applies even if there isn’t a diagnosed condition.

I am making the assumption that you are female...so everyone thinks it's ok.for you, untrained in personal care to clean these kids.

But what if you were male? Would they expect you to do it untrained and unchaperoned?

I’m in year 1. This happens occasionally. I look after the child in that I’m discreet. I send them to the toilet and pass in wipes and a bag for soiled clothing and clean clothes. I do t do any cleaning. If I had to, I would leave! In reception class there are increasing of chn that are not toilet trained. It’s gross when they’re 5/6. The smell makes me heave.

But working in schools means you are expected to help a child if they have an accident. And she has a big shock coming her way as she doesn’t get to choose the age she wants to work with, she will get employed and told she’s teaching year 1 if that’s where a teacher is needed. She doesn’t sound right for the profession and that’s why the teacher has raised concerns.

How is it misconduct when it's not part of the contract or job description?

Not your job but to be helpful I would speak to the parents each time and ask them to speak about going to the toilet and not holding it in. Also you could ask the child if they need a toilet. Maybe the toilets are dirty and they dont want to go.

@NC28 but there must be an issue. Otherwise they would just tell the child to change themselves or better still, tell them to stop pooing themselves. The fact that the child at 6 cannot go to the toilet or change themselves is in itself proof of a significant developmental delay. I don't agree with OP saying there is no SEN or medical reasons, of course there is, she just doesn't know what they are because she hasn't seen the paperwork and isn't in a position to diagnose.

IF a SEN was confirmed will OP be capable of cleaning up the mess? Because someone still has to do it. It's the same job regardless of what the paperwork says.

I do agree they need an education, but I think schools (Lord knows where the money will come from) need to be able to provide adequate support to facilitate this. It's not fair on the teachers to juggle this on top of everything else; and it's not fair on the child to be sitting around soiled waiting to be changed by whoever loses the argument.

Teachers are walking away from the profession in droves, and I worry for the education of the children.
I'd hate to have a system where the only people interested in the profession are martyrs, those for whom there is no better alternative or those who just need to pay the bills.

And most importantly, when are children being educated if staff are being stretched in so many directions.

Why do you think there are more and more kids not trained by reception age?

Just curious, as you’re someone who is working with kids of that approximate age group currently.

Thats a good question

Yeah. That's why I thought they need a doctor. Either for bowels or maybe there is SEN? The poor kid needs support definitely. It's clearly not his fault it's happening.

This is my thinking- there may well be SEN yet to be diagnosed or there's a need to meet with the family to discuss toileting incase this is a result of trauma/ neglect/ medical issues or at least to establish if there are problems with toilet training in other places outside of school and to develop a plan going forward.

I personally wouldn't feel right leaving a child in soiled clothing until parents (who may have commuted to work) can get there because I do think it's important to maintain the dignity of the child as well as the fact that sitting in soiled clothes can cause irritation plus the need then to isolate them from the rest of the class. Obviously this isn't in your job description and I understand why teachers and other support staff feel frustrated with this, especially if it's taking them away from what they view as their actual job and other pupils, but ultimately there will be pupils you come across who need additional help until appropriate diagnosis takes place or issues are properly identified and addressed. It's not the pupils fault, it may not be anyones fault. We know waiting lists for SEN diagnosis are very long at present. But those kids still deserve an education and to be safe and well looked after in school.

I know there's people who would suggest that a parent comes out of work to manage these situations but for many families they're already struggling. I'm a lone parent and no way could I maintain my mortgage on UC, nor would I give up a good full time job over a couple of accidents in the week while a SEN diagnosis could take a year to be identified never mind addressed. I wouldn't be suggesting a family end up in poverty as a solution and few families can afford one income these days.

I think if you feel unqualified, you need to go to the school and identify it as a training issue. At that age, most children can clean up with support and direction so your role may be more telling them what to do rather than doing it for them but again, that depends on the actual needs of the child. Ultimately there needs to be a push back to work with the family, smt and the education authority as well as other relevant providers like social services or psychology providers to get to the root of the issue. I know none of that makes it easier for you in this moment in time, but I think there are instances when you're in a role like this where you have to deal with things that are not in your job description to provide safe and appropriate care.

It's not in my job description to deal with vomit or blood or soiled clothes but I've had to do it multiple times because the young people I work with have been relying on me to help them when noone else was there to do it. I wouldn't have felt morally right leaving them to it or requesting they stay in that state until someone drives to sort them out.

I love the way as a 20 yr old ‘teacher in training’ with as you have said minimal experience working with children you confidently say ‘no Sen’. While you are within your right to refuse to do this if this is the schools policy I am shocked at the lack of empathy you show towards the kids you’re working with. First and foremost you need to get to the root cause of the issue a lot of kids are scared of pooing / going to toilets in school. If soo many kids are having accidents do they get sufficient opportunities to use the bathroom? do they have enough time? Are they missing out play time waiting in a queue therefore choosing to skip the bathroom? Is there enough toilets? Are they clean?

just to give you some perspective my 6 yr old was classed as ‘’no sen’’ by 9 she had a number of diagnoses and an EHCP stating ‘complex Sen’. At 7 her teacher said she thought my child was making up her vision issue by 10 diagnosed with a VI (cortical visual impairment).

Do your future students a favour and read up on SEN gain knowledge as remember 25% of your future classes will be SEN!

YANBU.

This seems to becoming more and more common - it was pretty much unheard of when my generation nor when my kids were at school. Taking out SN/ medical needs children out of the numbers, there still seems to be a problem that someone should be addressing. Teachers should be teaching and TAs supporting them. The expectation that children should be toilet trained by reception isn't unreasonable.