For refusing to change a 6 year old?

[Bernie6678]

So I’m 20 years old, at uni and working as a TA. I want to be a KS2 teacher. This is my first year working with children, I have no past experience, no children of my own etc. Posting here to get opinions from mums.

Anyway I’ve recently been moved from the year 5 classroom (which I loved) to year 1 and there’s multiple children who wet themselves and one of them actually poos himself quite regularly. No SEN. I understand the odd accident but this is happening a few times a week…
I’ve said I don’t feel comfortable changing children as this isn’t in my contract or job description and I’ve had no intimate care training. (Personally for minimum wage I’d rather not be dealing with poo and changing children).
I also think when a child wets themselves at this age they should be capable of going and changing themselves. We have lots of spare clothes and baby wipes here.

I’ve refused so the teacher or another TA changes the children.

Apparently the teacher has now complained about me because she’s having to do it when her previous TA would do it no questions asked. Previous TA has now had to go off on sick leave.

AIBU? They’re 6 years old?!

Changing the kids? That sounds fair enough. But that presents a staffing issue I guess if it takes another person out of the classroom.

It may not be your job specifically but the school is in loco parentis and if there is a need for a personal hygiene worker they should employ one (potentially instead of a TA).

You can't say "no SEN" - at age 5/6 there are huge numbers of SEN kids who don't have a diagnosis yet, just a list of issues of which toilet training delay will be one item. Meanwhile they have a right to an education no matter what delays in some aspects of development they may have.

You are fine to refuse, but the school will need to find a solution. A reasonable solution would be for them to change the TA job description to include hygiene assistance as needed, they are obliged to consult on that but ultimately after that consultation the result would be you being given a choice to accept the new job description or resign, and if they carried out the consultation properly it would be entirely legal.

I’ve worked in schools for 15 years. Never had ‘training’ about how to deal with a child that’s soiled themselves. It’s common sense how to change them! Also 99% of things that I do on a daily basis aren’t in my job description.

It needs to be reported as a safeguarding issue

Loco Parentis? Schools? When did this become a thing?

So many threads on MN are people complaining about schools setting and enforcing boundaries for the children they're supposedly 'responsible' for; and the majority of the respondents encourage the parents to defy the school.

I wonder if this is a UK thing as in Aus they won’t accept a child (unless it’s documented SEN) over the age of 3 unless they are trained. They will help with rare accidents and reminders but unless it’s documented that the child has additional needs, then children do have to toilet independently.

Clearly there is an additional need but it is not your job to judge that. You should take every child as they present. Regardless of whether you know their medical or social history.

And in any case schools are expected to make appropriate adjustments so every child can learn and that their human rights are respected…...

It is surely very unlikely here they are asking you to change nappies and bottoms. and actually what is expected is that you will be a compassionate and helpful supportive TA and support every child to be in clean clothes at school…... ie make sure you discretely suggest a loo trip, taking spare clothes or encouraging the child to do so and then stand by the door to guide them through the process……?

otherwise perhaps you are not cut out for education in a state school in this era?

and I say this as a parent of a child who frequently has accidents. And they are in Y5.

no diagnoses of SEN because it is near impossible to get assessed by CAMHS where we live. however clearly there is an undiagnosed SEN at play here.

I would be very unhappy if my child was left in shitty or wet pants all day because a TA thought they were too good to discretely accompany my child to the bathroom and support them to independently get changed.

if I was the teacher I would also complain.

and if I were the parents of the class I would also complain that the teacher was having to abandon the class because a TA thought it was beneath them to support children in the toilet.

Of course, if you are expected to actually provide intimate care despite not having the training then you need to speak to your union rep because that is not fair.
However what are you going to do if the school does provide intimate care training? .

It's always been a thing.

One of the children coming up into my class next year is still in nappies.

The child doesn't have an EHCP so no funding and no additional staff.

Child is leaving KS1 where, at least, we still have TAs. We have no TAs in KS2. I've asked what provision will be made for the child next year (given that I've also got an additional 5 children with SEND) coming up and, logistically, I won't be able to change a 7 year old whenever it's needed. I've been told, "Something will be sorted."

It won't be. Staff allocations for next year have already been announced. There are no TAs in KS2.

Yes and we are very discreet so no other chn would know. We genenerally smell it before they do. One child had constipation which causes liquid poo to seep out around the blockage. He wasn’t getting an urge. No SEN and he doesn’t do it now .

This is what happens when the parents wait until their child is 4 to potty train them! Infuriates me

I doubt it's explicitly written in any job description. Lots of things aren't. That doesn't mean that you are entitled to just not do something because it is not word for word on paper. Being in a role with a duty of care encompasses the expectation that a child's needs should be met.

If a child is deliberately left soiled by someone in a position of care, that person should be be disciplined. If it persists, they should be criminally charged.

Just getting a diagnosis and medication doesn't mean it won't keep happening. Or recur. DD had a severe recurrence in Y5 (but luckily was old enough to change and wipe independently by then )

Teachers won’t abandon a class. A TA will be pulled from somewhere

Again, neglect by whom?

Again, by the person refusing to change them. That person. They are neglectful.

Would you like it a third time?

Is it though?

Is it in even the most comprehensive job description?

Will the OP learn how to do it while she’s doing her qualifications?

Add “regularly changing children that should be toilet trained” to the workload and I am sure that the number of teachers will decrease further.

What's happening with the rest of the class while the teacher is changing them? I'd have thought any intimate care, eg changing a child who has soiled themselves, needs 2 adults, not one.
What if the teacher doesn't have another adult with them? ( This has happened to me with a Y2 class and a child who fairly regularly pooed himself, no SEN, just he didn't see a problem with it). Children of 5+ are changing themselves for PE, of course they can put on a change of clothes and wipe their own bottom. If they can't then they need specialist help and a parent coming to do it.
Somebody employed as a TA ( on near minimum wage) should not have to do this, but OP, it sounds like your school are pushing you to do it. I'd go to a different school.

I would expect a TA to get a child's PE kit for them to change into in the toilets and then help bag up wet clothes to hand to the parents at pick up. This happened for my child in year one (after the teacher told him he wasn't allowed to go to the toilet but that's a whole other thread!) He didn't need to be changed or wiped but I'm grateful he had an empathetic TA who took him to the toilet with his PE kit and helped him.

A 6 year old regularly pooing themselves needs to go to the doctors, poor child.

Was same in UK but this has changed somewhere between 2005 and now.

I think you should just do what needs done and get over yourself. I’m self employed sometimes my “guests” block the toilet and I’m up to my armpits clearing their poo. They aren’t 6. If I didn’t do it who would. It’s attitudes like yours which will grind the country to a standstill.

Along with the people who can’t toilet train their children (barring SEN).

One day you may be old and bedridden and needing someone to change you.

It’s human life, grim but there it is.

So you think children who have issues with their continence should be excluded from education until, if ever, it is sorted? Constipation, autism, childhood trauma, coeliac all these conditions cause incontinence to name but a few. How do you think this will affect the educational attainment, social development and life chances of these children?

I work in a state school, in a wealthy home counties village and we have 2 children in nappies in year 1. TAs at our school are expected to care for and change children if they have soiled themselves, at minimum wage, although teachers do help if the TA feels unable to cope with the incident!

The thing that irks me the most is when a parent in my class gives a lavish gift card to the teacher and an 'afterthought' gift to the TA at the end of the year... Especially when the parent may have history of sending a sick child to school, only for it to be the TA who has to clean up the vomit etc, caring for them...the TA is earning minimum wage and really does deserve an equal gift imo!! Good TAs are like gold dust.

Sure, I know. I'm sorry to hear your child had issues. In an ideal world the parents and teachers should try and help them learn to change independently but I get it is sometimes a really tricky situation.

Yanbu

Yanbu, I wouldn’t want to do it either