To tell the school my child will NOT go to detention..

[Nataliaa]

DD year 7 has been given a 30 minute detention tomorrow afternoon, after school. Since starting secondary, she has received 2 detentions- 1 for forgetting her PE shorts and 1 for not completing homework.
I fully supported the school and the consequences DD had to face on these 2 occasions. She did learn from each time and since then, she has always been organised with PE kit and completing homework.
DD is well behaved, works hard and all school reports have been brilliant so we have no concerns.

Back to today… it is 31 degrees and the school allowed blazers to be left at home, but still expected the children to be in their shirt, ties and trousers (the school recently banned skirts, and does not allow shorts so all children are in trousers. All year round)

During lunch break, DD loosened her tie and untucked her shirt as she was so hot and sweaty… and then forgot to tuck in her shirt and redo tie before going back in.
She walked into English and straight away the teacher told her to tuck the shirt in and do tie, which she did.
Then whilst sat down she untucked the shirt again… she then got up for something and the teacher noticed the shirt untucked and as she had already been told once, she was given the detention.
DD tried to explain she was just so hot and sweaty, she felt she couldn’t concentrate and loosening the shirt helped.. she was then told off for answering back.

I do not agree with this detention at all. Other local schools have let kids go in wearing PE kits in this heat. The teacher was not wearing shirt and tie- she was wearing a floaty and cool summer dress.
I can’t think for the life of me how an untucked shirt would affect DD’s education, and why it’s more important to stick to a strict dress code rather than doing whatever is comfortable in this heat!!

I have never been in the position to disagree with the school, and not sure what would happen if I refuse to let DD go to this detention… also not sure if that’s setting the wrong message to DD, as I always encourage following school rules!!

Any advice? Is this a hill worth dying on? What would you do?

They would be wasted on someone with such a binary way of thinking.

Did you tag the wrong person?

Not sure why you have tagged me. It is in error ? or a lack of critical thinking skills?

Nope!

If she doesn't like the policy why don't you encourage her to challenge it in a mature, well thought out manner. School is unlikely to be only the time in her life where she will want to challenge leadership or the status quo. What is she going to do when she gets to work? Have a strop or stage a one woman angry protest every time her boss or co workers are unreasonable or inflexible.

Help her to be assertive not petulant .

The schools was inflexible, her behaviour was poor. = Detention.

I have to wear a uniform for the job i do. Millions of people have to wear a uniform for the job they do. Most would prefer to not wear a uniform on days when its really hot.

But here is the thing, if our boss told us to tuck our shirt in, we would do it. If we then untucked it and had to be told again, we would expect consequences. If we then answered back.....my guess is we would see further consequences.

Your child is learning all the time. Let this be another one of those lessons because in the future you may be the person asking her to do something she doesnt want to do or she may be in a job and struggle with the concept of taking orders.

We live in the uk, its not that big a deal. Other countries manage it.

Other countries don’t have stupid school uniform rules. We have family in Australia and while there’s uniform there it’s a polo neck and shorts, summer dresses - sensible for the weather.

Most work uniforms are in place due to practicality, health and safety etc. Most of which applies in a school - just as it hasn’t applied in most offices for years now.

So people who don’t wear uniforms to school or are at schools where they relax them in these conditions will grow up to be petulant and unemployable?

Our local high school in Scotland is very strict with uniform. Shorts have never been allowed and everyone must wear shirt and tie and either a skirt or trousers.

But I do know another school which allows polo shirts and black jeans though.

I couldn't agree more. It's heartbreaking sending the more vulnerable children off to secondary school, knowing it's a totally different environment from the nurturing one they've had at primary school.

I understand it. I went to a comp in the 80s with kids from a range of economic backgrounds. The designer label fashion for men kicked in off the back of football fans wearing expensive clothing to advertise their wealth in Thatchers Britain. This trickled down to.teenage boys so pringle, farah, le croc, fila etc were the clothes that had to be worn if you wanted to be trendy.

My mates and I came from the poorer end of the catchment area. I couldn't give a stuff but some of my mates did (they stole, begged and borrowed), some mates went into the rock/biker look, other indi check shirts...today there isn't another option, it's conform or else..

Exactly this. I mean, the detention and the rule is utterly ridiculous. However I strongly believe it will have been the deliberate flouting of a (stupid) rule that caused the detention.

I hope you don't work anywhere near children if you think allowing them to take their blazers off during a heatwave is "kind".

Yep, I agree with you on this.

After school in our case. Some kids are given ' late school ' also. This is 12 - 6pm. Who suffers here? Parents trying to earn a living; usually the poorest I will guess too.

I understand the difficulty schools face and I believe they have their hands tied with a school population they aren't necessarily equipped to manage.

I'm not entirely clear who makes policy decisions on the above issues; whether all down to a Head or Governors.

The problem is not really knowing exactly how it played out. Was it a reasonable reply or say a polite challenge? Was it a ' no, get ta fook teacher '.

How will we know. Because the teacher has all power.

If we didn't have such silly uniform rules, we'd have less issues to worry about when it comes to those teachers who don't appreciate a child's autonomy and err on the side of being a bit Miss Trunchball.

Well this makes no sense because now everyone has to spend hundreds on school uniform. If you can't afford all the different (usually logo-d) items, Sre you can buy second hand from the school, but then it's scruffy and worn so the kids who are poor can still be identified by what they're wearing - only now their parents have to buy separate lots of clothes for school and weekend with no cross-over.
The main reason they have these rules is so that the academy trusts - who are profit making businesses after all - can look as though they're hot on discipline without actually having to be hot on discipline in the areas that matter.
And anyway I personally believe that discipline is less important that pastoral care which these same schools seem to not give a shit about.
No wonder kids all have anxiety and mental health issues these days. They live in constant fear of sanctions for any little misdemeanor.
Forget your protractor - detention. Drop your pen twice in one lesson - detention. Need a wee or get your period in class - wait till break when the queues are so long you'll be late for your next class and get a detention. And do it all in ridiculous clothes that aren't suited to the weather while the people dishing out these detentions are dressed in a sensible way. FFS

@Seriouslywhatnow 👏 couldn't agree more. Excellent observation.

@Nataliaa
any updates as the detention was for today?

Another one with a lack of critical thinking skills.

Even if there were no school uniform there would still be a school dress policy, and we would still have pupils and parents that would push it to the limit and beyond.

Because we are English and apparently too daft to be able to dress properly for school unlike pretty much everyone else across Europe …

May not be worth it, or alternatively may be very much worth it if we keep getting hot summers but it would be an idea to look for school trousers that are cotton or cotton / linen and shirts that are 100% cotton. Also worth buying a size that's a little too big - that gets the shirt collar a bit away from the neck.

Time for a bit of rules lawyering - assuming the rules don't specify otherwise there's no reason to be wearing standard school uniform polyester in this heat (yes it's harder wearing and good for most of the year).

Dressing for heat to protect your skin needs loose layers of light coloured clothing in natural fibres - this is as close as you can get to that.

Other heat relieving clothes things: she could take spare pants / socks / bra and change at lunchtime. Bra liners are worth a look for absorbing sweat. Socks should be natural fibres / specialist moisture wicking ones.

And you probably know about other things like starting with a bottle half full with ice to melt over the day / a small towel / scarf that can be saturated and put on the back of the neck / drinking plenty of water / finding shade when outside etc.

Worth her preloading for school with 500mls of water or so in top of her usual breakfast drink if they're sensible about toilet access.

I think the course of least resistance is for her to attend the detention. Rather than it escalate with the school wanting her to do more detention for not attending the first and you being in lengthy discussions with the school about it for days. And it teaches authority figures get it very wrong sometimes. I imagine the teacher, though in cooler clothing, was also too hot and stressed.

I used to believe in rules should be obeyed because they are rules even if they seem silly. Then 9/11 happened. I'd have died if I'd been there and has listened to the instructions given to people's to stay out rather than evacuate. Rules are always subject to sanity checks.

Maybe worth a conversation with the school anyway re how they're keeping the kids cool enough to learn.

Also worth making sure your daughter knows the symptoms of heat related illness - if she's feeling too hot and ill staff should be helping.

How so? Use your words, explain what you mean.

You said: “You are part of the problem of the decline of behaviour in schools OP. You are doing a great job of preparing her from employment.”

I pointed out that I’ve never worked anywhere (in 34 years employment) that required a dress code involving shirt, tie and trousers, or any kind of formal wear at all.

Earlier today I posted on what I saw workers coming out of a major London station wearing - little in the way of formal wear.

If you’re talking about her answering back (again, it would be helpful if you used your words a little more) - well, stupidity needs pointing out. Petty rules that are to people’s detriment should be challenged. Of course the OP’s DD is young and won’t have this fine-tuned, but good for her for not taking it lying down.

Found an article discussing the rose of authoritarian schools. Will add a link in a sec but here is a little quote

"While the ultra-disciplinarian approach has taken hold in schools where pupils are primarily working-class and ethnically diverse, says Reay: this is not happening within fee-paying schools. On the contrary, “in the private sector it's considered really important to get children engaged. It doesn’t matter if what they say is wrong, [the priority] is getting them to say it aloud, to participate and to be autonomous learners.” Working-class pupils, on the other hand, are being told “they've got nothing [to say] worth listening to, because no one is listening to them.”