To tell the school my child will NOT go to detention..

[Nataliaa]

DD year 7 has been given a 30 minute detention tomorrow afternoon, after school. Since starting secondary, she has received 2 detentions- 1 for forgetting her PE shorts and 1 for not completing homework.
I fully supported the school and the consequences DD had to face on these 2 occasions. She did learn from each time and since then, she has always been organised with PE kit and completing homework.
DD is well behaved, works hard and all school reports have been brilliant so we have no concerns.

Back to today… it is 31 degrees and the school allowed blazers to be left at home, but still expected the children to be in their shirt, ties and trousers (the school recently banned skirts, and does not allow shorts so all children are in trousers. All year round)

During lunch break, DD loosened her tie and untucked her shirt as she was so hot and sweaty… and then forgot to tuck in her shirt and redo tie before going back in.
She walked into English and straight away the teacher told her to tuck the shirt in and do tie, which she did.
Then whilst sat down she untucked the shirt again… she then got up for something and the teacher noticed the shirt untucked and as she had already been told once, she was given the detention.
DD tried to explain she was just so hot and sweaty, she felt she couldn’t concentrate and loosening the shirt helped.. she was then told off for answering back.

I do not agree with this detention at all. Other local schools have let kids go in wearing PE kits in this heat. The teacher was not wearing shirt and tie- she was wearing a floaty and cool summer dress.
I can’t think for the life of me how an untucked shirt would affect DD’s education, and why it’s more important to stick to a strict dress code rather than doing whatever is comfortable in this heat!!

I have never been in the position to disagree with the school, and not sure what would happen if I refuse to let DD go to this detention… also not sure if that’s setting the wrong message to DD, as I always encourage following school rules!!

Any advice? Is this a hill worth dying on? What would you do?

If I'd been forced to wear trousers as a teenager, I simply wouldn't have gone to school. There is no reason in the world why girls shouldn't wear skirts as part of their school uniform if they so wish. It's certainly cooler and more comfortable when the weather is hot. This whole idea of making everything gender-neutral was posited at the same time as the trans nonsense and thus must be resisted whenever it shows its face.

And you'd really hope that someone at this school had enough common sense to realise that children would be better equipped to learn if they were allowed to dress for comfort on a boiling hot day.

You just sound abusive, to be honest. Would you like the cane to be brought back as well?

Any school with the attitude of this one clearly isn’t opened to reason, otherwise they wouldn’t have such a stupid, rigid policy in the first place.

Civil disobedience seems a natural next step.

I find this very sad. Ensuring children's welfare is absolutely central for primary schools and the teachers spend a great deal of time and effort ensuring their charges are happy, comfortable and engaged.

And many of these children, who have mostly been cherished, encouraged and appreciated in primary schools, then leave at age 11 for huge, impersonal secondary schools where no one cares about their well-being or comfort beyond victimising them when they make inadvertent mistakes and imposing petty, controlling rules on them.

Enforced stupid uniform rules and letting kids run around and assault each other are not the only 2 options though are they? If you can't see that then maybe you could have done with a bit more discipline at school yourself. There is a third option which is to enforce rules that MATTER and not stupid pointless ones that don't and are just about either power or about being SEEN to enforce that just encourage kids (and reasonable parents IMO) to lose respect for the teacher / school

This

The top school in the UK has for many decades been St Paul’s Girls in London, which <gasp> doesn’t have uniform.

I have no doubt that their classroom environment is excellent - and gosh, the staff there don’t have to waste a single second policing uniform.

There is more to good discipline and a positive learning environment than outdated, not-fit-for-purpose school uniform rules/inflexibility - especially given most schools won’t have air con.

In what way has it been demonstrated in this thread that kids given any leeway just take the piss? The kids weren't given leeway and didn't take the piss as far as I can see. You sound like an abusive bully who just assumes kids are criminals and should be punished in advance. Tell me - would you treat any other group like this? Maybe patients with mental illness? Perhaps we should assume they would all be criminals too so we should teach them some respect in advance? People with dementia in a care home? Sometimes they dont show enough respect. It might lead to them just running around and assaulting each other if we do t make them all dress like they're in a Victorian period drama in the heat. See how ridiculous you sound now?

This too.

Why someone please tell me are children forced to wear blazers for a start. And then given detention for it for not wearing at all times.

Why can't we simply focus on the important pressing issues.

The behaviour problem is a reflection of the breakdown of the system I have no doubt. Every parent I know who is struggling in this sphere is not your stereotype ' my little Johnny can do what he likes, i don't care' parent.

Make this environment considerably less stressful and you are going to have less problems.

This is way beyond the classroom teacher I feel - many whom are probably under ridiculous stress and will therefore not be their best selves tbh.

@Ddakji

The demographics and circumstances of St Paul's bear absolutely no resemblance to those of any state school in the UK.

@BeachLife2 you sound scary tbh. I hope you don't oversee vulnerable people in any way. This is not to be cruel to you. It's a reflection.

I understand that this sort of conformist system is historically something we have all been indoctrinated into.

It however feels worse now than when I was at school and in some covert ways has actually regressed. Yet we have a narrative such as ' the kids the kids, they're going feral ' feeding this idea that it's right to regress and return to Draconian practices ( all hidden under a veneer that it's necessary and for the good of society). Bullshit all of it.

I caveat that there are many problems for teachers and I would never want to teach in light of this. There are too many distractions preventing addressing the real cause and real issues we should focus on in schools.

No - but they do make the point that uniform is not a pre-requisite for academic excellence and achievement. They are the best school in comparison with their peers in the private sector, who do in the main have uniform (though private schools often don’t make a song and a dance about it).

I notice you’re not answering any other points made other than this one. Why is that?

What is your point? Richer people’s children need less discipline?

Our school has allowed no blazers and no tie for the last week.
I did request my son to go in pe shorts actually as they have to wear long trousers and he has really bad insect bites, about 30 from being in the woods. They said no to that

I dont know why they cant go in pe kit. Surely comfortable kids learn better.

It's funny, isn't it?

If you've got plenty of money, your child can go to a school where they're treated as a worthwhile individual and a human being and still be incredibly successful in life.

Whereas if you have to rely on state education, what your child really needs to succeed is a draconian zero tolerance environment where they must obey without question and their comfort doesn't matter.

Agree. Here i am in my senior management job for a large international company, in my cotton nightdress sitting on my bed with the fan on me. Working hard. But comfortable.
I did get changed to do the school run but changed back due to the heat. Bedroom is coolest room in the house.
I would really hate to be in long trousers in a classroom with no aircon right now.
Appreciate other jobs are harder and i am probably being a princess about the heat.

As someone who doesn’t have kids the takeaway from this thread has been the absolutely trivial nature of the behaviours that warrant detention these days.

I had always assumed detentions were for serious bad behaviour, not the piddling little things people have mentioned here.

Are these detentions in lunch break or sfter school? Because if after school plans are having to be rearranged because the kids had forgotten his green highlighter or not put the lid on his glue stick then that is ludicrous.

That is actually quite a thought provoking point. I hadn’t actually given that much thought but the way children are treated at school must have an effect on them as adults. All these different attitudes at schools from the extreme draconian rules like in this instance where unless you practically die in the classroom you don’t get any concessions to wear what makes you comfortable all the way to we don’t care what you wear but we treat you as responsible teenagers to be self motivated. In the case of the OP’s child, being told I don’t matter at all by the teacher and she couldn’t care less if I overheat must have quite a negative effect on your self worth.

@Drfosters

Schools which are dealing with all sorts of social issues and deprivation do need to have firm and strict discipline, yes.

No evidence that this is the case here

editing to add- it is rather frightening that many people have the idea that private schools all posh and no problems and state schools are all bad behaviour and social deprivation

But not stupid and mindless rules and inflexibility. That is to no-one’s benefit.

Enforcing school uniform rules in this way, especially when it’s so hot, is ludicrous. My kids go to a non-uniform school and I am delighted about that when I read about these kind of arbitrary, punitive situations.

I know it's somewhat outwith the scope of this thread but the research on zero tolerance policies in school (and as an angle to that, the "school-to-prison" pipeline) is quite interesting and shows that these sorts of draconian disciplinary policies have long-term negative impacts including a harmful effect on student mental health.

In short, if you're treated like shit and given the message that your opinions don't matter, that has an impact.

Food for thought - it's not something paying parents would tolerate for their children in private schools, so why is it ok for other people's children?

Some schools especially in the US are moving away from these approaches and specifically adopting a warmer and more nurturing ethos that doesn't penalise minor and inadvertent mistakes.

I think that, in practice, draconian rules are what schools do to manage large numbers of children with a relatively small number of adults.

I have heard about this happening at DS’ former school and it seems to have got worse as it got fuller and was then oversubscribed.

I don’t see how detentions for not having shirts tucked in can produce any results other than defiance in previously reasonable kids, on the one hand, or compliant kids who don’t dare speak on the other hand.

That's because rich kids are being prepared for a life where they won't be wearing a uniform / won't themselves have to confirm to stupid rules from small minded petty people and institutions. If you' want your child to work for the army / the met police / a production line the. The style of teaching given in this OP probably IS preparing them for their future life