Relatives living with us - no jobs

[BunnyVV]

we have some relatives from overseas staying with us. I agreed to help them with somewhere to stay and sustenance until they got jobs etc.
i have welcomed them into my home and treated them as family. Things are not easy for us due to the cost of living but I am very good at budgeting. We eat well thanks to good prep for home-cooking. I work hard and earn moderately well but the mortgage etc is big. I enjoy some nice things, eg a glass of posh gin on a Saturday, gym membership etc because I prefer not to spend elsewhere (beauty treatments, takeaways).
the problem is that they are not trying hard enough to get work, or they turn down what they don’t fancy (eg have to get 2 buses to get there).

it’s been 10 weeks. They do not have anything full-time. They agreed they’d take bar work whilst looking for something better, but that’s not happening. I’m tired of sharing nice things 10 weeks on. I need to find the courage to tell them that the smoked salmon is only for me, the gin is only for me, please don’t eat the whole bar of green & blacks chocolate because I like a square at night sometimes. It’s not right I go to the cupboard and theres none there. I need to tell them not to touch the nibbles and beer I keep in a cupboard for unexpected visitors. but I feel like a horrible person in doing so.
they have no income. But my income cannot sustain this any more. I don’t want to stop buying things that I like to have in my own kitchen. I work hard and I get to chose what’s in my fridge and cupboards. why do they eat smoked salmon instead of ham? When the smoked salmon runs out, then they eat the ham.
they seem completely oblivious to the problem. I didn’t set any ground rules because I didn’t imagine it would get to this point. I assumed they’d be gone 40 hours a week working.
how do I sit there and enjoy a posh gnt on a sunny evening whilst they sit there and watch me whilst drinking water?!??? I end up not enjoying the gnt.

@Laurmolonlabe Brexit would have no bearing on an EU citizen's right to work in the EU.

You could discuss this as a cross roads. Its up to them to understand whats required to live and work in your country - its then up to them to decide if its for them or not - but an interlude 'holiday' at your expense is not an option. So they need to decide if they are cut out for multiple hospitality jobs with lots of travel or not. Maybe if they are from somewhere rural and remote with a slow pace of life - this lifestyle is alien and unacceptable to them. Thats fine. Also they need a reality check. I had a family teenagers / young adults staying with me and the situation was similar (they didnt touch my food - were entitled to benefits so bought and cooked their own food and took on weekly chores) - however their expectations were totally unrealistic. They believed that they would get top jobs and applied to many - got no where (as zero work experience). In the end one went home. The other got a job in a pub in Covent Garden which came with very cheap and good quality accomodation over it. She never saw herself as a hospitality worker (was v wealthy in her home country - where she never needed to work) - but she grafted 6 days a week took full advantage of everything culturally in walking distance and had a ball. A year later she lands her dream job in events and is doing great. She doesnt have much disposable income as she is now paying normal rent but she now understands that that there is no high speed golden elevator to riches in London which this SM generation likely believed.

I had the blunt conversation at 12 weeks as my committment was only for 6 months and half way thru - sunbathing in my garden whilst we were all out at work (including my 16 year old DD working full time on a farm for the summer) was grinding my gears. I realised it was a conflict of my own values and their lack of insight on reality. I outlined the facts that they would need 6 months rent up front in 3 months time and there were zero other options. It was an uncomfortable conversation. I didn't expect or want to do it. But my intentions were for everyones benefit. And ultimately it was. I did not want to 'kick them out' in 3 months time, I did not want them homeless in 3 months time, I did not want them to stay sunbathing beyond that deadline. They were very comfortable in my home and with my friendly, genrous and welcoming friends and neighbours (who also did support with connections for jobs - not taken). The subsidised accomodation which came with the pub job cost only £60/week including bills - she was also fed at work - so she saved loads for her 6 months rent up front when she moved to her dream job. A right bargain for central London. She had a ball - went to free jazz clubs in Soho after work etc, met to so many new young friends - and it was a brilliant stepping stone. Is there a similar option where you are?

You expect them to behave in the way you would behave or in the way the previous visitors behaved. They aren't behaving in that way because they aren't you and they aren't the previous visitors either.
You need to tell them what the expectations and boundaries are.

But @BunnyVV is really only expecting her relatives to behave with basic manners, decency and responsibility.

It's not normal to freeload on relatives (or anyone really) for almost 3 months. Not normal at all, so let's not blame the OP, but help her find a way to get them either contributing or out of her house.

What happened when you had the chat with them OP?

I reckon come Feb / Mar, you daughter will be heading in to the box room.

Because those rellies will still be living it up at the OP’s

You know OP you are quite articulate and well able to explain what your expectations are from your guests.

Like others I'm puzzled what you want to get from this thread. You seem much more interested in defending your position to people on here than in dealing with the situation at home. 🤔

Just sit your guests down and tell them what the rules are (which you have explained very nicely above).

Good luck 🤞

Agree that the OP seems paralysed to have a reasonable, calm conversation - maybe she is worried about erupting emotion - hers? or theirs? or their parents? Maybe its a family system that somewhere along the line was controlled by volatility?

Hopefully @BunnyVV can see that her preferences, requests, boundaries, deadlines and consequences are reasonable and she is entitled to hold them in her home without justification - BUT she is also responsible and accountable for communicating them explicity in situations where they are seemingly not implicity understood.

Hopefully OP has gained enough insight to prepare herself to do something she clearly feels very uncomfortable doing - having the calm assertive conversation - (feel the fear and do it anyway) and see having this conversation sucessfully as a personal growth opportunity for herself - believing she will feel a burden lifted once the words are said.

This is true. But if OP is like me, she deeply resents being forced into confrontation by people who are fundamentally arseholes 😜

Hmm, that may be the problem here if op sees it like that.

However, op is used to inviting people into her home in order to give them a (temporary) helping hand, so she should already understand that different people come into new situations with different assumptions and expectations.

Setting out some ground rules about expected behaviours from your guests is not in any way confrontational. In fact it may make people more comfortable if they know what the boundaries are.

I think op's biggest mistake is in not having the conversation with her guests weeks ago.

Well in that case, she’s letting “arseholes” live with her three kids.

@BunnyVV Have you sat them down to have a difficult conversation yet? Maybe they need to go back home and re-evaluate what they want. It seems that what they want right now is to sit on their bums and be supported by you.
If that is not in your wheelhouse, you need to stop allowing it. Not everyone is ready to strike out on their own so, perhaps, them going back to their real home, will make them decide what they want from life. Because, sponging off you is not sustainable or good for anyone.

Best of luck on your talk.

You sound really nice OP. The trouble is you’re too nice, which shouldn’t be a thing but it is because some people will take advantage of you as these guests are. I think you’ve realised you have to be firm, but it can be difficult to do that if you’re not used to having to. There’s some great advice from other posters about how to have to conversation. The other thing I would do is stop buying the smoked salmon and the nice chocolate for now. You’re not going to get to enjoy it and it will be less stress for you to not keep being wound up by them taking more than their fair share.

The conversation does not have to be difficult if you keep any anger out of it.

Give them the benefit of the doubt. Take the view that they genuinely have not understood what they are doing wrong. Then explain to them what you expected, what other guests have done and why their behaviour is not acceptable, and then spell out exactly what you want them to do in future.

If they react badly to that then unfortunately you can no longer give them the benefit of the doubt and they will have to move out.

Agree. How has week 11 been for you @BunnyVV ?

Everyone feels like this. Its how resentment builds. But it's ALWAYS on the 'giver' to specifiy the boundary as 'takers' have none.....tedious but the truth.

Deep breath. Get it done calmly and assertively - then the resentment turns to relief. Much more comfortable way to live.

Another weekend with the rellies OP?

Did you actually manage to have tbe conversation with the relatives? If not, why not?

Oh good lord! Are they still there? Please for the love of smoked salmon tell them they cannot stay any longer.

We had the conversation. What has transpired is the existence of a deeply complex co-dependent relationship. This trauma runs quite deep.

They are a couple who, on the outside, appeared to have their sh*t together back in their home country. One half of the couple is a close relative so chucking them out is not an option, and please don’t tell me that it is. I don’t want to be too outing so I can’t really explain this in detail. I am not looking for any further advice, I am just giving an update as somebody asked for one.

person 1, let’s call her Jane, does everything for person 2, let’s call him Andy. They’ve been together since they were very very young. Jane does not realise she shouldn’t be doing everything for Andy. She thinks it’s love. Andy failed his exams at school, Jane deliberately failed her’s etc. so she stayed down an academic year and could help Andy in class.

They moved in together at 16 and looked after Andy’s younger sister too as Andy’s parents are useless. Jane took on a lot of responsibility at a young age. She was doing everything for both Andy and his younger sister but the outside world thought they were doing it together. Andy’s parents knew Jane was doing everything and they pushed the narrative of “that’s what you do when you love someone”. This was convenient for Andy’s parents as they now had no responsibility for any of their children. They divorced and continued being useless with new partners. Andy’s parents have never taken responsibility for anything so suggesting they do is pointless.

Andy is a nice guy but hasn’t got a clue about life. We gave him some jobs to be responsible for… he did them once, he then forgot and now Jane does them. Trying to explain to Jane that it’s not her responsibility is like talking a different language. The co-dependency runs very deep and both are genuinely offended, confused and upset when we try to explain what a normal relationship looks like. They think it’s none of our business if Jane chooses to do everything. In one sense I see that but on the other hand I cannot be present in my house watching this level of laziness and uselessness from Andy. He knows no different and doesn’t really listen to anyone except Jane who doesn’t want Andy to change.

Andy is so conditioned by Jane doing everything that it doesn’t matter how we try to explain, neither of them are seeing the co-dependency as a bad thing.

if they ever split up Andy would be lost. I don’t think they will as Jane is so infatuated. Jane has some family issues that mean her co-dependency is this need to do everything for Andy.

we didn’t realise any of this. Andy’s parents are also manipulative enough that over the years they have said things to us that made it seem like Andy and Jane as a couple are a team. That’s the narrative Andy’s parents needed the outside world to see in order to cover up for the fact that they (Andy’s parents) are so selfish and useless, and Jane was essentially doing their job.

We thought they were quite sociable people, and they’d both make friends here in new jobs etc. They are sociable but only ever go out together. We didn’t pick this up when we were visiting their home country on holiday.

the job applications were going slowly as they were applying together, and if they did apply separately it was Jane from Andy’s email address. When Andy got a call about work he didn’t come across as very clued-up.

jane had to accept a job because we put pressure on them to contribute to the household. She was called by more then one place and ended up working a few double shifts to almost 15 hours in total some days. Jane is switched-on and a good worker. She will have no trouble holding down a job in a cafe until she finds something better. However Andy just sits at home waiting for Jane to finish her very long shifts. He even forgot to do the tasks we gave him.

it is a very very sad situation to see. They are a couple who have an opportunity to come to a European country, work hard, save some money, travel and broaden their horizons yet they are held back by a co-dependency so deep that they don’t even understand what is wrong. Andy’s parents, to suit their own selfish needs, drummed it into Jane that what she was doing was love. 14 years later I am not sure me and my husband are going to show her otherwise. On a practical level we are not sure if Andy even has the skills to do stuff by himself, and whilst Jane wants to continue the co-dependent relationship, he will never be forced to do so.

we have pushed them to contribute a set amount each week for bills and food, and set ground rules about snacks and alcohol that they are following. However it’s Jane taking care of all of this.

the problem is now something quite different and not something I think will be easy to resolve without some difficult conversations.

I’m not looking for any more advice, thank you. I just wanted to give an update.

@BunnyVV it is disgraceful to think that your or your husbands relatives lied to you both over the years about andy, who seems to be the relative. were there no grandparents around watching what was going on? andy is going to need a lot of help. is he even educationally up to supporting his own existence?

The grandparents died a while ago. There are other older children in this family who were looked after by the grandparents at times. The history of Andy’s parents being useless is a long one! Being looked after by the grandparents was not such a bad thing as these older siblings do have a better sense of responsibility and a good work ethic (even if that work is minimum wage, they work hard and improve their hourly rate the old-fashioned way by proving themselves to be reliable, honest etc).

@BunnyVV thank you for the update. It does sound like a very disturbing and compex situation.
Wishing you all the best achieving an outcome that suits everyone.

Its kind of you to update @BunnyVV - but I cant help but sense that you are also gaslit into this absolute 'learned helplessness' nonsense and inadvertently enabling it - is that the control dynamics of your extended family?

I really havent read so much 'avoidant' twaddle in my life - if you want to help Jane and Andy you need to kick arse and pull the rug - but it seems you are more comfortable allowing your inner peace, your DCs and DH be practically and financially exploited whilst you tap-dance around the coercively controlling Andy - his behavior is illegal in the UK - dont know how the DA laws sit where you are in the EU.

OP, is this your situation to fix? Is this something you can fix? In my professional life (20 years retired now) I used to see similar situations where the wife had done all the domestic stuff and the husband was the wage earner. Husband retires, wife become disabled or chronically sick and husband can't even cope with going shopping or opening a can of soup. The adult children never realised the situation because the home was always clean and organised and the marriage was a happy one. Thankfully it got much rarer. In my experience, the only thing that worked was tough(ish) love from the adult children but there had to be the will to do it. I know you don't want suggestions but the only thing which might work would be to present the change as a cultural thing "How we do things here is that everybody works, everybody contributes, so if you want to stay here you have to change" and set some small steps and deadlines for achievement. it will be hard work for you and Jane will have to massively to buy in to make it work. Of course Assuming that Andy isn't SEN, he may just be a world class manipulator. If he does have developmental problems and he is in your country legally, what options are there for support and benefits?

Some live-in caretaking couple type job could get them out of your home. Housekeeper & gardener type role.

Looks like you are husband are the new enablers … unless you can get them out of your house.

p.s. does Andy have an intellectual disability, or MH issue? I really can’t understand that a “typical” human can be so lifeless and incapable. I have worked in SEN, and also with “at risk” and there is a difference between “can’t” and “can learn” to be independent.